Question

[Rico]

I know what it is for the pilots, but what determines what is Mainline and what is "Midatlantic" for the remaining workgroups contractually (at this point).

I know AFA, CWA, and even IAM work MDA under different criteria than the remainder of "mainline", but what determines what is MDA for each of you...

Is it the Pilot's Scope provisions (which you either mirror or rely upon), or are there specific parameters (of your own) defining such...?

Basically, if the company were to fly EMB-190's at MDA, would your current working agreements allow such...?

What if the company decided to transfer all narrowbody flying into MDA, how much of a change would they have to force upon your CBA's...?

I am not trying to be mean or threatening about this, rather I just want to know if your agreements now are already only to work "mainline" US Airways flights (or upon US Airways Aircraft), vs. either not working (or working under different rules) US Airways Express (read MDA) flights or aircraft.

It is just a theory of mine that the slow creep of flying being transferred to "Express" pay/rules is not going to be so slow in the near future.

Just trying to get info on the remaining work groups' situation, thank you.

 

[Light Years]

ALPA and AFA have the same "scope". I believe the current rule (always subject to change at this place) is anything over 75 seats is to be flown by mainline, a certain amount of 70 seaters allowed at PSA, the rest at MDA. Anyone and thier granny can fly anything in the 19-50 seat range.

The Express titles dont make a difference. The company couldnt buy a 737 and put Express on it and fly it as an Express aircraft.

To allow the 90 seaters at Express the unions would have to change the scope clause. They likely will because it wont affect the very senior folks who only care about themselves, not thier co-workers or the future of thier professions.

 

[Rico]

Bingo...

That is what I think too, when it comes down to it, that is exaclty what has happened before (even in better times).

Beause really, MDA is just another in a long line of earlier examples (ALG, PDT, PSA, USAir Shuttle, Metrojet).

Because on a senority system, as long as you shetler the "top" jobs, then the ones that go to the junior folk can be used to subsidize those remaining senior positions (take one for the team).

As unappetizing as that sounds, the truth is that if they offered a deal where the senior positions kept more, and growth was promised in some form. Then you would see most senior people go for it in a heartbeat, and the junior people grudgingly accept it in the hope of a better future. (ie: upgrade, line holder, hold the base of their choice, whatever).

I mentioned it before, I think that the company is looking to model themselves more after Virgin, rather than America West or jetBlue. In which the domestic flying is done "express style" (read = MDA), and the mainline is focused on widebody international flying catering to the Star Alliance.

 

[Light Years]

Interesting points Rico... I agree that thats what the plan is.

I'm not sure about the Virgin example though... theres Virgin Atlantic, a UK based, premium transatlantic carrier, and then Virgin Express (if its still around?), a completely different LCC based in Brussels. They are unrelated to each other from a customer point of view- the flights dont connect or even codeshare. Theres also Virgin Blue in Australia, also an LCC. Virgin America, if it happens will also be an LCC with no relation to Virgin Atlantic. But I think I understand the idea- a more LCC style domestic product, and a more traditional international one.

The only scary thing about US handing over all of the flying to lower paid divisions is its inherent lack of long haul, international flying. The Carribbean/Lat Am is a bright spot, and there could be transatlantic growth if they only had the aircraft, but thats about it. With the current east coast only network there is not much opportunity for mainline expansion. US is now a joke and a bit player in the transcon market, and doesnt have presence anywhere feasible for tranpacific service. That means the "mainline" would very, very small.... at most, 30 widebodies and maybe 150 narrowbodies (coincidentally enough, the existing and on order Airbus fleet).

The E170/190 fleet along with 50 seaters (though not as many as originally planned) would make up most of the connecting network, but hopefully under the US Airways brand. As much as everyone poked fun at MetroJet, it was an interesting idea, but gone about the wrong way as the seperate brand confused customers. The Shuttle was the opposite, great when it was more of a visible brand, as the name carried a history and prestige with it. MidAtlantic is not a visible brand, and it shouldnt be, but in the Express brand its buried and losing business where it could be making some. The MDA aircraft and 'concept' (smaller, single class but more comfortable for everyone) is well recieved. The public likes it for short to medium haul routes, so why saddle it with the negative, inferior branding?

The costs on the domestic side need to at least mirror the LCCs, but what US is currently trying to do is bring it down even lower, to a commuter airline level. I dont think anyone could argue with a JetBlue style contract for MDA flying 70-100 seaters.... but the company wants it to be American Eagles contracts. They want turboprop costs on mainline planes. On top of that, they want to continue the poisionous, destructive culture of having multiple outsourced carriers on the property. This has to be the worst drain of morale to go to work each day and compete with someone else wearing the same uniform and livery- it takes away from competing with the real competition. If they want a JetBlue/Southwest style airline, they need to just be an airline where everyones on the same team rather than try to be a franchise.

Crazy as it sounds, I do think US has the right idea to a point, I just think they are going about it the wrong way. They can either be a leader for once, or do the usual screw-up.

 

[Rico]

Ahhh, the Virgin thing is more a general example of the "primary" company focused on being an international widebody airline, while other parts of the company focus on domestic-style flying. My point was that what we think of as "Express", might be labeled tommorrow simply as "Domestic"...

The Idea being perception-management ===> Leading to cost management. "Well, of course you do not make as much, you only fly an A319 Domestic.."

I doubt they would slap the "Express" label on the side of an Airbus, but they sure would like to get the same kind of express-ish work rules/pay structure for those that fly and work the thing (just like right now at MDA).

No, my estimation is that MDA was a careful experiment to see if the mainline could be retrofitted into an express-style operation. If junior mainline employees could adapt to such...

I think that existing concessions, made for MDA, from all of the work groups (ALPA, AFA, CWA, IAM) are far easier for the company to extend into narrowbody equipment, than to force severe cuts across the board. Unfort., cold hard reality is that such a move would give them what they want, with far less effort or trouble than anything else.

MDA can outsource heavy MNX, MDA does not need Fleet Service/Utility, Stations working MDA can be changed to "Mainline-Express". MDA work rules and pay are not that different fromthe dramatic changes proposed to the pilots and FA's so far, are they...?

Hey, I am just guessing here, and that is why I asked this question to get some additional info. But it just seems to match what has occured in the past, and makes sense with most of the moves that the Company has made so far.

Before anyone discounts the chances, Think back a few years and tell me if such a thing as what MDA is today was anything but "fantasy" (then).

People are people, they look to keep what they have now, or as a second choice, get something later...

They ask for something huge, leave you little option, and then give you something positive (growth) to grasp ahold of (rather than unemployment).

 

[Light Years]

The Idea being perception-management ===> Leading to cost management.
[No, my estimation is that MDA was a careful experiment to see if the mainline could be retrofitted into an express-style operation. If junior mainline employees could adapt to such...

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EXACTLY. Its the new mainline... if that idea would be embraced, maybe there could be a happy medium of LCC/Regional style flying and contracts, and then the more traditional "long haul division" with more suited pay...

If you look at it, everyone at MDA is doing what they were doing 5 years ago at a more regional wage. This plane and its likely-to-come bigger siblings are performing the same routes the F100, DC9, MD80, 737 and before that, F28 were doing a few years ago, staffed by the exact same people. The difference is that before there was a regional operation operated as a full late 90s major airline competing with RJs and then LCCs, while US did little of the type of long haul, broad network flying that other major airlines were doing.

The EJet family could easily be operated under contracts competitive with both RJ operators and LCCs to protect and maintain the traditional network (with a more competitive product)... the current AE/MDA contracts are too drastic though IMHO. Then the mainline fleet could be redeployed to do more mainline flying instead of competing on the regional level. The better paying contracts, if still efficient, make more sense on longer stage lengths and markets with more profit potential.

Its the plan regardless, but I think the unions should realize the plan and try to make it beneficial to all. If not the company will force it through, and leave what left of the "mainline" in the dust.

 

[Rico]

Well, I am no big believer in coincidences.

So far as I understand, not a single MDA working agreement has been nailed down yet, we all just use the AE contract as a temporary substitute for now in the 170's

This leaves Management with a lot of manuvering room in regards to how to shape MDA no matter how much of Airways it eventually includes. (and a very cheap point to start from). It is harder for labor to come up from something than it is to fight to keep what they already have.

I could see the creditors and investors signing off on just such a concept as this in a heartbeat, followed closely (and you know it is true) by labor.

Because, it already exists...

 

[700UW]

The AFA and the IAM Mechanic and Related have contracts with MDA.

 

[Rico]

700UW

What is the current basis for what is considered MDA vs. "Mainline" for IAM, or does your agreement merely reflect the pilot's scope provisions...?

Also, what work at MDA does Fleet Service or Utility currently have a right to at Midatlantic...?


Thank you

 

[700UW]

Fleet service does not have a contract yet. So I know there are MDA employees in PIT and PHL working the ramp and maintenance.

MDA contract covers all work at MDA, ie E170s, the IAM represented mechanic and related cannot work any mainline flights. But the company can outsource also.

There are provisions for utility, but I do not think they have hired any yet.

The contract was done in binding arbitration and it is not very good.

 

[Rico]

Yeah,

That is what I thought. Thank you for the answers.

So basically, even before going into BK, even without having to use the leverage of impending Contract Abrogation or Company Liquidation..., It seems like MDA is already pretty close to (or can be made into) what the company is looking for from each labor group...

190's at MDA are a forgone conclusion at this point, the rest remains to be seen. But honestly, I stick by my theory that MDA will play a much larger role (and in larger equipment) in any future that Airways has.


Peace B)

 

[700UW]

I have to agree, about a month ago I posted a thread about SwissAir and Crossair and asked if it could happen here and people laughed.

Swiss went bankrupt and their commuter bought the assets and renamed themselves SwissAir.

 

[USFlyer]

I could totally see UAIR doing just this. MAA will survive with the EMB-170s and Airbus aircraft. Boeings are parked. Operates out of BOS, LGA, PHL, DCA and FLL. Hubs are totally shutdown in PIT and CLT much like DL is doing in DFW. PSA will probably still be around too. PDT/ALG (whatever it's now called) will probably be gone with no hubs.

 

[700UW]

Hub in CLT wont shut down 2nd largest Carribean gateway and PHL is US' # 1 money making station.