Scott Kirby's CLT Crew News Update - July 29

[AirbusAVE]

I tend to agree with you - WN didn't "run US out of town" in various markets as much as US gave WN the rope to hang US with. From the west coast PSA system to the intra-Florida, US cut back and WN moved in.

So, US Airways should have stayed in cities that airways couldn't make work just so that Southwest airlines wouldn't come in?

How is Southwest exactley hanging US Airways? Why didn't American or United snap up the PSA operations?

Personally, I can't see any logical reason to give up LGA slots - expecially non-Express. As others have said, if US can't make money at LGA - the "downtown" airport at the biggest market in the country - things are really bad.

Hell, why doesn't US Airways just set up shop in Chicago or Miami. Them are 2 very large markets.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

You seem too worried about secondary markets such as DAY,SYR.

Maybe they were goldmines back in the day when there were no competitors - at all.

When WN comes to CLT they will have a fairly large market that is ready for the "Southwest Effect". CLT is ideal for WN.

Low costs and a viable competitor to ATL.

 

[AirbusAVE]

You seem too worried about secondary markets such as DAY,SYR.

Maybe they were goldmines back in the day when there were no competitors - at all.

When WN comes to CLT they will have a fairly large market that is ready for the "Southwest Effect". CLT is ideal for WN.

Low costs and a viable competitor to ATL.

The claim was that Southwest chased US Airways out of it's previous hubs. I said US Airways wasn't chased out by Southwest Airlines of it's previous hubs with the exception of BWI.


Question though; Was Syracuse or Dayton ever a goldmine for US Air? Or was it a goldmine for Piedmont/Empire Airlines?

And yeah - Charlotte would be an ideal airport for Southwest. For some reason or another, Southwest has not chosen to start service to Charlotte.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

The claim was that .... Charlotte would be an ideal airport for Southwest. For some reason or another, Southwest has not chosen to start service to Charlotte.

Being PSA I have no clue who did what to whom back east.

You do seem to be a bit sensitive about things considering you won the war w/ US Air.

I should say the battle is over but not the war - this is far from over.

They, US Air, essentially aren't around any more but that doesn't make you any less immune to what happened to me and them.

I do suggest that WN will be looking for places to grow and CLT would seem to be untouched for now. How long do think that will last?

 

[AirbusAVE]

They, US Air, essentially aren't around any more but that doesn't make you any less immune to what happened to me and them.

I do suggest that WN will be looking for places to grow and CLT would seem to be untouched for now. How long do think that will last?

I agree with the whole Charlotte is not any less immune. Charlotte just has been in the right place at the right time.


I think Charlotte would be added within a year or so. If I had to guess as to which Destinations Southwest would serve from Charlotte would be to Chicago, Baltimore, and/or Orlando. I also think Airtran would just pull out of Orlando/Baltimore to Charlotte.

I wonder why Southwest would start LGA/Boston before they would add Charlotte. Oh well.



Back to LGA:

LGA's US Airways express operations are not making money while Mainline is. I think it's a smart move for US Airways to just get rid of some slots and drop LGA - Syracuse/Rochester/Ithica/Asheville/Bangor/Etc. and concentrate on markets such as Atlanta, Indianapolis, Columbus, etc.

 

[wings396]

The claim was that Southwest chased US Airways out of it's previous hubs. I said US Airways wasn't chased out by Southwest Airlines of it's previous hubs with the exception of BWI.


Question though; Was Syracuse or Dayton ever a goldmine for US Air? Or was it a goldmine for Piedmont/Empire Airlines?

And yeah - Charlotte would be an ideal airport for Southwest. For some reason or another, Southwest has not chosen to start service to Charlotte.

We can start here with the Hub in SYR, which was pretty much the heart of Empire Airlines. After the merger, PI continued to expand the hub with several southbound flights to many markets not previously served by Empire. Being that I was from PI, I can say that PI didn't do things that didn't make money. Was SYR a
"goldmine"? Based on reports at that time, it opened up a lot of options to the people of the Upstate NY region and surrounding areas. Please remember that a good portion of the SYR flying was done with F-28's, and the heavier southbounds with 737's and a few 727's. At that time PI also operated the Florida Shuttle using F-28's as well. I recall them shifting the F28-1000's back and forth with the 4000's between SYR and Fla. due to seasonal needs. There wasn't really any competiton with the SYR hub at this time. Following the PI/US merger, the SYR hub was dismantled and it had nothing to do with SWA at all. The F-28's were a Mainline sized RJ, that was very cheap to operate from what I had been told with a very low break-even L/F.
As far as DAY, it was moving along just fine until the merger with US in 1989. It was too close to PIT, and was draining traffic away from another hub operated by the same airline. Again, the elimination of the DAY hub had nothing to do with SWA.
As I posted above, BWI was going to be downsized becasue ti was next door to PHL. I can say that SWA caused US to expedite the pulldown of BWI, but it was going to happen with or without SWA on the scene.

 

[CactUS4Ever]

Does anyone know of a timeline yet of when all of this is going to happen meaning the terminal swap with Delta at LGA and most of the express going bye bye at LGA and the DCA expansion?

 

[john john]

US strategy was and it’s to go after the competition with mass express thus downsizing mainline trying to kept market share and run a virtual airline

 

[nycbusdriver]

US strategy was and it’s to go after the competition with mass express thus downsizing mainline trying to kept market share and run a virtual airline

But it is a very expensive virtual airline compared with pure mainline operations. Is it really worth it to keep market share if you have to spend $200 per seat for which the customer pays only $79? That's where we are. That's why LCC is a mess.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So, US Airways should have stayed in cities that airways couldn't make work just so that Southwest airlines wouldn't come in?

It'd help if you did a little research on the history. US pulled down the west operation (ex-PSA network) when the company losses mounted in the early '90's. I certainly don't know for a fact that those markets couldn't work, but I do know that US retreated largely to the east coast (plus some trans- and near transcons). The pullback from the west coast coincided with decreasing the size of the airline, so maybe US just dropped what they didn't understand as well as the east coast markets.

How is Southwest exactley hanging US Airways? Why didn't American or United snap up the PSA operations?

Again, some history would aide your understanding. WN (itself and as a proxy for real lcc's) set the lower fares in markets they serve. For a traditionally high cost airline like US (original), that is a form of hanging from their own high cost petard.

American "snapped up" Air Cal while UA formed Shuttle by United to provide PSA like service to the west coast. WN certainly didn't snap PSA up since PSA had already been bought by US - it was a master stroke of buying a west coast airline only to drop the markets and park the airplanes.

Hell, why doesn't US Airways just set up shop in Chicago or Miami. Them are 2 very large markets.

They certainly are 2 large markets - one already dominated by AA, UA, and WN (Midway) while the other is home to one of AA's hubs. Why US would want to invest the money to "set up shop" in any significant way at either of those cities is beyond me when they already have the infrastructure and slots at LGA.

Jim

 

[phllax]

Most of the PSA route pull-down coincided with the grounding of the Bae-146 fleet due to rising costs of oil with Gulf War I.

Back to LGA, does anyone else remember Parker or Kirby at a previous earnings conference being asked what the plan for LGA was should the FAA impose a slot lottery/stricter limits as was planned for EWR and LGA to limit small jet & prop flying, and if anyone else remembers, the answer was that they had a plan. Could this rumored terminal swap and maybe more be the plan?

 

[Dog Wonder]

so maybe US just dropped what they didn't understand as well as the east coast markets.

Jim

And maybe they are doing it again, except it is the west market they arguably understand.

 

[captainJack]

American "snapped up" Air Cal while UA formed Shuttle by United to provide PSA like service to the west coast.

United Shuttle.

I remember running from gate to gate, departure every nine minutes, for two hours one day, around two to three pm, to get a jump seat (the only seats available, most jump seats filled with UAL employees).

They had seven departures per hour from LAX to SFO and seven departures per hour the other direction, departures starting at 0530 and ending around 2230, a total of fourteen 737s airborne at any one time per hour, full, just LAX-SFO. Tom Legow, former UAL marketing VP hired by US, said he could make money charging $67 in that market. UAL was charging $116 per seat. I know, because several times I had to buy a ticket. It made the Trump shuttle look like a lemonade stand run by kids.

I could generally get on the 0530, after that it was a crap shoot. I even got bumped 2230 in SFO, UAL pilot on the jump seat.

 

[does this plane go to paris]

United Shuttle.

I remember running from gate to gate, departure every nine minutes, for two hours one day, around two to three pm, to get a jump seat (the only seats available, most jump seats filled with UAL employees).

They had seven departures per hour from LAX to SFO and seven departures per hour the other direction, departures starting at 0530 and ending around 2230, a total of fourteen 737s airborne at any one time per hour, full, just LAX-SFO. Tom Legow, former UAL marketing VP hired by US, said he could make money charging $67 in that market. UAL was charging $116 per seat. I know, because several times I had to buy a ticket. It made the Trump shuttle look like a lemonade stand run by kids.

I could generally get on the 0530, after that it was a crap shoot. I even got bumped 2230 in SFO, UAL pilot on the jump seat.

7 flights per hour in each direction from 0530 till 2230 is about 112 flts each way per day. Today UA offers a grand total of 19 flts per day. that is about a 90% drop?

 

[Pacemaker]

Based on a previous post, it appears that number includes the Express operation.

No; BTS breaks out data for regionals separately.

It should really come as no surprise that US Airways' costs are 50% higher than Southwest.