robbedagain
Veteran
Except with AS having a base at SEA DL is invading it w a lot more flights WN tried that with PHL and they reduced service Only time will tell if AS will force DL to cut or reduce some flights but I highly doubt it
Southwest Airlines wants American Airlines’ two gates at Love Field
- Thread starter Hatu
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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DL has loaded its expanded DAL service eff Oct 13, 2014 including 6X 717s to ATL plus LGA, LAX, DTW, and MSP.
robbedagain
Veteran
So they got the 2 gates already?
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
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No. DL is just posturing. They're not a tenant, but maybe they think that by announcing service, they'll get preferential treatment.
Fact is that they'll probably get equal treatment, and nothing more. DAL will tell them what times they can use a gate, and they'll have to adjust their schedules to fit that.
If AS decides that 5x SEA-DAL is in their interests, they'll request it. If VX decides it wants to fly to 4x SFO-DAL and 3x LGA-DAL, they'll request it. And so on & so on.
The airport determines how many turns per day are reasonable... If they expect 8 turns per day per gate to be workable, they'll only allow that many flights, and work out a distribution across all the requesting airlines.
If there are requests from three airlines, they'd each get at least 5 departures a day.
In my example above, VX and AS would each get 5 flights, and DL might get its five, perhaps a sixth if they wanted to operate earlier/later than what AS & VX would request.
But let's be perfectly clear here --- there would be no obligation on the airport's part to give DL any more or less than what they give anyone else.
The more airlines who want to offer service, the fewer flights DL would be able to operate.
So what they're doing with announcing all these flights right now is posturing.
If just one other airline wants to serve DAL, they'll be lucky to operate 6, maybe 7, departures a day in total.
Fact is that they'll probably get equal treatment, and nothing more. DAL will tell them what times they can use a gate, and they'll have to adjust their schedules to fit that.
If AS decides that 5x SEA-DAL is in their interests, they'll request it. If VX decides it wants to fly to 4x SFO-DAL and 3x LGA-DAL, they'll request it. And so on & so on.
The airport determines how many turns per day are reasonable... If they expect 8 turns per day per gate to be workable, they'll only allow that many flights, and work out a distribution across all the requesting airlines.
If there are requests from three airlines, they'd each get at least 5 departures a day.
In my example above, VX and AS would each get 5 flights, and DL might get its five, perhaps a sixth if they wanted to operate earlier/later than what AS & VX would request.
But let's be perfectly clear here --- there would be no obligation on the airport's part to give DL any more or less than what they give anyone else.
The more airlines who want to offer service, the fewer flights DL would be able to operate.
So what they're doing with announcing all these flights right now is posturing.
If just one other airline wants to serve DAL, they'll be lucky to operate 6, maybe 7, departures a day in total.
robbedagain
Veteran
Thanks e now we await the high almighty dl king come and tell us who or if dl bribes dal people for more gates! 
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
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despite all the posturing on this board, I'm betting that DL's flights will remain for sale.
Since DL has scheduled 11 flights/gate, I doubt if anyone will be able to beat that.
Since DL has scheduled 11 flights/gate, I doubt if anyone will be able to beat that.
Kev3188
Veteran
Bingo.
Maybe they wind up running what they've announced, maybe not. But at this stage of the game, that's all this is...
Good on 'em if they can swing it, but that seems like a case of pulling the rubber band a bit too far...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
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If you look at the schedules, there are not more than 2 departures per 45 minutes. The morning push has the most departures in a small period of time and 45 minutes hardly seems pushing it to board and dispatch 76-110 originating aircraft.
Of course there are those who want to assume that DL has not really succeeded in getting gates at DFW. If they were just posturing, why did they not load the schedules several weeks ago? Oct 13, 2014 has been in range for booking for several weeks already.
If DL is just posturing, then I'm still betting they will succeed at it. No other carrier including WN or current tenant UA has published schedules or provided a public notice of their intent to use the gates. WN and some low fare carries don't accept bookings this far in advance.
When the schedules are pulled and DL is sent packing, then those who don't want to see DL at DAL can celebrate...
Of course there are those who want to assume that DL has not really succeeded in getting gates at DFW. If they were just posturing, why did they not load the schedules several weeks ago? Oct 13, 2014 has been in range for booking for several weeks already.
If DL is just posturing, then I'm still betting they will succeed at it. No other carrier including WN or current tenant UA has published schedules or provided a public notice of their intent to use the gates. WN and some low fare carries don't accept bookings this far in advance.
When the schedules are pulled and DL is sent packing, then those who don't want to see DL at DAL can celebrate...
robbedagain
Veteran
Reason no other carrier has done the schedule is may be they already know its too early to tell who the gates will go too.... for all we know may be vx will wind up with the 2 gates
Kev3188
Veteran
You originally wrote "11 flights/gate." That's tight enough, but what you've now written is even less realistic. You sure you don't want to clarify that?
???
Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't change what they're doing, though.
Right. Posturing.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
Here is DL's first flight of the day schedule.
Using two gates, DL's flights are at least 45 minutes apart... and these are overnighters.
DL2410 DAL0600 – 0905ATL 717 D
DL3393 DAL0615 – 0830MSP CR9 D
DL5767 DAL0700 – 0820LAX E75 D
DL7331 DAL0715 – 1130LGA E75 D
DL3335 DAL0745 – 1120DTW CR9 D
DL does have 3 departures scheduled in the evening at close times... 5.25, 5.30, and 5.35 pm. Either they have use of more than two gates at some times of day (which could portend further growth), or there really is no interest in serving DAL by other LFCs who also serve DFW, or they are just posturing.
Or perhaps DL is really first to request gates and the process is first come, first served... and the early bird has gotten the worm.
DL's schedule is well-time for the local market as well as connecting with DL's hubs.
Using two gates, DL's flights are at least 45 minutes apart... and these are overnighters.
DL2410 DAL0600 – 0905ATL 717 D
DL3393 DAL0615 – 0830MSP CR9 D
DL5767 DAL0700 – 0820LAX E75 D
DL7331 DAL0715 – 1130LGA E75 D
DL3335 DAL0745 – 1120DTW CR9 D
DL does have 3 departures scheduled in the evening at close times... 5.25, 5.30, and 5.35 pm. Either they have use of more than two gates at some times of day (which could portend further growth), or there really is no interest in serving DAL by other LFCs who also serve DFW, or they are just posturing.
Or perhaps DL is really first to request gates and the process is first come, first served... and the early bird has gotten the worm.
DL's schedule is well-time for the local market as well as connecting with DL's hubs.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,907
- 9,359
The only thing you know for a fact is that DL has filed schedules in public, which is how they've chosen to approach this. They're clearly trying to win the PR battle for some odd reason.WorldTraveler said:
Neither you, I, or Terry Maxon know what's been filed with the DOJ and/or the City of Dallas, which in the end is what really matters here. And I can guarantee that if anyone knows first, it will be Terry Maxon who is the first to report on it... not a professional forum participant working from his apartment in a super-secret location...
You're also ignoring the fact that there's a Preservation of Assets order in effect. Interest has been expressed, and the DOJ has vetted the list for slots at LGA, which will be their first priority.
It's less clear how they will handle the disposition of gates at the other airports, but my guess is it would be up to those individual airports to manage, and they won't do anything with that until the POA expires.
If it's the guy who schedules the most flights per day will get the gates, WN would win.WorldTraveler said:
But it won't be on that basis.
Equal access is measured on an airline's ability to serve the airport. Period. Not the number of flights or destinations. It's really not even a matter of "what's the best use of the asset for the community" basis, in which case the airport *could* discriminate against DL if they chose to because they don't want an oligopoly situation where only three of the largest four airlines have access to the airport.
When an airport has applications from multiple airlines *before the closing date for expressing interest* on a scarce asset, they have to consider ways to distribute them fairly.
It won't be based on some pie-in-the-sky "let's over-schedule" 11 flights per day, because the airport knows that's not workable. Planes break and get delayed, and it's not fair to other tenants to have DL hogging a gate when there are no spares to be had.
My guess is common use gates will be assigned slots ranging from 60-90 minutes, somewhat similar to what LGB does.
I'm guessing that they'll go with 60-75 minutes per turn. That's on the long side if you have dedicated gates, but in a common use situation, you have to have a buffer built in for delays, and also some time for airlines or handlers to swap out the ground equipment and for the gate agents to set up/tear down queues and signage.
But, all this is a moot point until the airport actually publishes procedures for how they choose to handle AA's returning/divesting of the gates.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
With DL and SW both wanting to get their filthy paws on the 2 AA gates at DAL, it sound to me like we are in for a great show!
The "Irresistable Force" (DL) meets the "Immovable Object" (SW).
Pass the popcorn, please.
The "Irresistable Force" (DL) meets the "Immovable Object" (SW).
Pass the popcorn, please.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
immovable as in has moved out about 80 flights/day from ATL since the FL merger?
I'm onto the ice cream course.
I'm onto the ice cream course.
Looks like SWA will be aggressively bidding for the gates. Delta better get more prepared now. WT would just be crushed if Delta lost out the bidding to SWA:
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Southwest Air to bid aggressively for Reagan National slots
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Reuters
4 hours ago
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By Karen Jacobs
Related Stories
US approves Southwest, Virgin for LaGuardia slots Associated Press
Southwest, Virgin America to buy LaGuardia slots -sources Reuters
Southwest, Virgin America gain slots at LaGuardia USA TODAY
What To Expect Next From The American-US Airways Merger Forbes
American Airlines Group Makes Its Debut Wall St. Cheat Sheet
Dec 11 (Reuters) - Southwest Airlines Co plans tobid aggressively for takeoff and landing rights at ReaganNational Airport near Washington, as it looks to bring morecompetition to the nation's capital, a senior company executivesaid.
The slots are coming up for sale as American Airlines GroupInc makes divestitures required under a settlement withthe U.S. Department of Justice that allowed AMR and US Airwaysto merge.
"We are very interested in picking up as many DCA (ReaganNational) slots as we can," Robert Jordan, Southwest's executivevice president and chief commercial officer, said in aninterview at the carrier's Dallas headquarters on Tuesday.
He said Southwest needs a critical mass of slots to have aneffect on fares at the airport. Southwest, which bought AirTranin 2011, said it currently has 32 slots at Reagan National.
"We need a meaningful number of slots to be able to competeeffectively at Reagan," Jordan said. "We don't need 10; we need50 or 60 or 70. We're going to be aggressive in terms ofbidding."
American and US Airways agreed to give up 104 takeoff andlanding slots, or 52 pairs, at Reagan National and LaGuardiaairports, along with gates at airports in Chicago, Boston, LosAngeles, Miami and Dallas. JetBlue Airways Corp hasalso expressed interest in acquiring slots at Reagan National.
Jordan said he didn't know when the Reagan National slotswould be sold.
Last week, Southwest agreed to buy 22 of the 34 slots at NewYork's LaGuardia Airport that American and US Airways are givingup under the Justice Department settlement. Virgin America wasalso cleared to buy LaGuardia slots.
Jordan said Southwest would use some of the LaGuardia slotsit is acquiring to provide direct flights from Dallas to NewYork. He said the carrier would disclose the new flights itplans to offer from LaGuardia in the near future.
Jordan said Southwest would also like to bid for more gatesat Dallas Love Field, an airport where Southwest is already thedominant airline.
.
Southwest Air to bid aggressively for Reagan National slots
.
Reuters
4 hours ago
..
.
..
.
....
.
...
..
By Karen Jacobs
Related Stories
US approves Southwest, Virgin for LaGuardia slots Associated Press
Southwest, Virgin America to buy LaGuardia slots -sources Reuters
Southwest, Virgin America gain slots at LaGuardia USA TODAY
What To Expect Next From The American-US Airways Merger Forbes
American Airlines Group Makes Its Debut Wall St. Cheat Sheet
Dec 11 (Reuters) - Southwest Airlines Co plans tobid aggressively for takeoff and landing rights at ReaganNational Airport near Washington, as it looks to bring morecompetition to the nation's capital, a senior company executivesaid.
The slots are coming up for sale as American Airlines GroupInc makes divestitures required under a settlement withthe U.S. Department of Justice that allowed AMR and US Airwaysto merge.
"We are very interested in picking up as many DCA (ReaganNational) slots as we can," Robert Jordan, Southwest's executivevice president and chief commercial officer, said in aninterview at the carrier's Dallas headquarters on Tuesday.
He said Southwest needs a critical mass of slots to have aneffect on fares at the airport. Southwest, which bought AirTranin 2011, said it currently has 32 slots at Reagan National.
"We need a meaningful number of slots to be able to competeeffectively at Reagan," Jordan said. "We don't need 10; we need50 or 60 or 70. We're going to be aggressive in terms ofbidding."
American and US Airways agreed to give up 104 takeoff andlanding slots, or 52 pairs, at Reagan National and LaGuardiaairports, along with gates at airports in Chicago, Boston, LosAngeles, Miami and Dallas. JetBlue Airways Corp hasalso expressed interest in acquiring slots at Reagan National.
Jordan said he didn't know when the Reagan National slotswould be sold.
Last week, Southwest agreed to buy 22 of the 34 slots at NewYork's LaGuardia Airport that American and US Airways are givingup under the Justice Department settlement. Virgin America wasalso cleared to buy LaGuardia slots.
Jordan said Southwest would use some of the LaGuardia slotsit is acquiring to provide direct flights from Dallas to NewYork. He said the carrier would disclose the new flights itplans to offer from LaGuardia in the near future.
Jordan said Southwest would also like to bid for more gatesat Dallas Love Field, an airport where Southwest is already thedominant airline.
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