SWA now getting involved with slot (s) possibilities

[WorldTraveler]

yes, I understand the concept of how 401Ks work and the issue is about your use of the term "pension" to mean exclusively DB plans.

And, once again, you are being excessively restrictive in your use of the term "Pension" which does include DC plans which themselves include IRAs, 401Ks, and profit sharing plans.

You cannot use popular terminology and then incorrectly use it to exclude classes of benefits that the government has specifically said do belong in that class.

If you want to call DB plans, pensions, that is fine but you can't then turn around and say that pensions does not include DC plans because the US government and others say they do.


And lest you think DB plans are so secure, why you don't talk to thousands of airline employees - esp. pilots - who lost significant amounts when their DB plans were terminated and turned over to the government.

Many higher paid ground employees including mechanics have exceeded the limits the PBGC has established.

There are municipal and other government workers that are losing money in DB plans as well.

It also doesn't change that DB plans are being replaced by DC plans throughout the US.

 

[700UW]

I dont need to contact anyone, my pension was terminated in bankruptcy, I live it first hand, do you?
 
And if it was a 401k, I wouldnt be getting a check from the PBGC to ensure I still get money, all be it not the full amount, but better than nothing, and most of us didnt take too bad of a hit from our pension being terminated as we arent much over the thresholds set by the PBGC.

 

[737823]

Deleted.

 

[swamt]

I just hope that WN's WA countdown clock nuclear meltdown will not be as devastating as yours was when you learned about the terms of the AA/US - DOJ Settlement ... ... ... 'cause dude, since then you've really become unhinged, your diatribes are full metal jacket.

LOL  Now that is funny, and  FACTUAL...   Now you see why I changed my focus, since the announcement of the agreement.

 

[swamt]

I'm sorry but if someone is factually wrong and repeatedly keeps arguing that they aren't, such as using terms like pension in ways that are not supported by even the US Dept of Labor, do you think I or anyone else should just sit down and shut up?

Would you like to count the number of posts by others that were made saying that DL would not be allowed to bid on slots or gates that are divested as part of this divestiture procedure?
Go ahead and count Sharon's post too.

Now count the number of times that I responded that DL would be challenging the process, intended to be able to bid for assets etc.

Add in the number of posts that were in agreement with my positions.

Now tell us the ratio between the two, Kevin.

Now tell me how what I have posted is excessive in comparison to the volume of posts other people made.

Specific to this topic, WN employees (or those who have identified themselves as such) repeatedly made statements and posted articles claiming that DL would not end up with gates at DAL.

If you think those statements will not be challenged, then you and they don't have a clue about what it takes to survive in a world of competitive ideas.

And that is why you and others want to run and hide and berate others, just as AA/US have done in this settlement agreement with the DOJ.


The simple fact once again is that you and others have had a field day parading your anti-DL BS for years while trashing anyone that points to the reality of what exists based on facts.

This forum will remain a place for the exchange of ideas divergent from yours and those you chose to line up with.

Don't count my post.  You see, your so upset that you not comprehending what you are reading and your getting a lot of postings crossed.  None of the articles I have posted said DL and UA couldn't bid, but they did say they would more than likely not be awarded.  As my postings also encouraged DL and UA to bid away.
 

I haven't made those claims.

Now how about some facts to back up your claims about the compromise that lifted the wright amendment restrictions.

I'll take that blame 100%.  I rearranged my focus once I saw WT was approaching the ledge,  since the merger agreement has been reached he has been getting closer and closer to the ledge.  He kept claiming (just as he is again above) that everybody and their brother (including the media) is not allowing DL and UA to bid, or that they will not be allowed to bid.  When the facts are the US officials said they can bid all they want but they probably will not be awarded.  So there WT is at the ledge, and since he was not grasping things, and so shook up over the announcement, I posted one time that DL would never get any gates at DAL.  And there he went, right over the ledge, hence where we are today with all kinds of mumbo jumbo.  Heck he stayed up extra late to keep responding thru the early am hours.   Did I lie about DL getting any gates, well, NO, no of course not, I must have misspoken (just like Obama)  But sure has been fun watching the fall from the ledge hasn't it??
 
Then what a lame apology he gives out (and not direct it directly to Sharon)  I am sorry... BUT?   That actually says a lot about ones character.  Even a lot of is DL employees have noticed and watched the fall. 
I am sorry for the misspoken phrase--here it comes--BUT, it sure was fun...

 

[swamt]

I have only had objection with your grasp of the compromise that lifted the Wright amendment.

Correct. And he is so twisted up he cannot grasp that...

 

[swamt]

It's exactly what we're talking about.

Know your audience.

He's not grasping it Kev...

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

He's not grasping it Kev...

That's what she said!

 

[WorldTraveler]

swamt,
is it perhaps you that are upset? Four consecutive posts? Mind running faster than your fingers can process?

The issue is simply regarding access to the gates at Love Field. By your own account, WN has had conversations and was hoping to be able to gain access to add'l gates at Love Field.

Given DL's interests and the significant legal uncertainty regarding the basis the DOJ used to exclude one carrier or two from the process, then there is a very good chance that WN won't end up with the gates that AA will have to abandon and further the whole issue of slots at DCA and LGA might be at stake.

The DOJ officials who made the comment that the legacy airlines are the problems and they will not be allowed to participate in the process has a whole lot of explaining to do. He needs to either withdraw that statement of provide DL and UA, if they choose to participate, and DL certainty does, in the divestment bidding process.

There is a whole lot of data that DL can and will produce that will counter the DOJ's notion that WN is a low cost or low fare producer or that it has been blocked from being able to acquire assets at DCA and LGA in the past.

Further, it is unprecedented in the United States for a carrier to control as much of a single airport as WN does at DAL and that is all directly related to the Wright Amendment which was a NEGOTIATED COMPROMISE - your own coworker said the same thing - between AA and WN who have been trying to keep each other out of their territory. It was never based on the idea of allowing free and open competition at airports in the Metroplex.
The simple fact is that AA and WN should be free to enter each other's markets as they wish, just as occurs at MDW, another WN large operation.

And so should DL, and every other airline.

The Wright Amendment and its revisions is the most protectionist and anti-competitive pieces of aviation law that was written and it was done to resolve a conflict between AA and WN, to the complete detriment of consumers in N. Texas and other carriers.

The fact that WN has the share of the market it does at fares that in many cases exceed that of AA demonstrates the flaw that WN is helping consumers.

You and your coworkers at WN are the ones who are clearly worried. DL isn't about to be excluded from a market because of a two-way agreement between you and AA. All of WN's hopes about the WA are up in the air now... along with the whole idea that WN should be able to control even 16 of 20 gates in the presence of a desire from other carriers beyond even DL who might be interested in serving Love Field.

A challenge to the legality of the Wright Amendment itself is at stake if DL doesn't gain the ability to not only bid on the gates and the slots at DCA.

Your founder did a fine job of building a nice little empire. Let's see how fast the DOJ changes it mind and puts in writing processes to ensure that all airlines are allowed to bid on the assets that become available which will mean that the grandiose dreams that WN has had about picking up slots and gates will have to compete with DL's, an airline which WN has not exactly rolled over quite the way it has with most others.

And that is precisely why you are afraid of what will happen when you really have to compete with DL in the bidding process for these assets.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

You've not only become unhinged eversince the US/AA-DoJ settlement, but it's getting worse by each post.
 
Good luck to DL trying to disprove that SW is not the "low cost or low fare producer".
Here's an example:
ATL-DTW on 11/18 returning 11/20
SW ticket approx. $800 (price range is $393-$413 non-stop one way(
DL ticket approx. $985
Advantage SW by approx. 20%
 
I know it isn't the perfect example and you'll write a 10000 word post to explain why ... ... ...
 
Wright Amendment (WA) is a federal law, not a negotiated contract as you insist.  And it is not an agreement between WN and AA.  It is a law governing air traffic for DAL with some provisions of WA applying to DFW, DAL, FTW, AFW , and ADS.  Ofcourse a DL oracle like you knows that.  The current version of the WA was reached in 2006 (between Dallas, Ft. Worth, AA, WN, and DFW).  Interestingly, at that time, mighty DL had no objections!!!! unlike B6.  Your diatribe about DL being bullied is non-sense. 
 
Actually now that I think about it, your blabber about the topic is your typical song and dance:  DL is greatest!!!  And if anything, even as extremely minor as the POSSIBILITY of DL not retaining the use/lease of its current gates at DAL appears, you get your panties in a bunch.  Pathetic!
 
The fact that UA and B6 and others have remained more-or-less quiet about the AA/US-DoJ settlement is telling:  you've got a full blown case of severe DLphilia!

 

[WorldTraveler]

First, in one sentence it is very easy to show that your single fare search means nothing because there is aggregate data to show that WN's fares are at or higher than network carriers in market where WN does NOT have to compete. WN has to compete in ATL-DTW which is why the fare is lower. It follows the same pattern as network carriers in markets where it has a disproportionately large share of the market to extract a fare premium.
Do you realize that WN has a higher than average fare and also the majority of the share in the Dallas - Houston (all airports) market? WN has a higher average fare than AA and DL in the LAX-SFO market and also has more than twice the share of both. There are dozens of markets where WN does not have the lowest average fares in aggregate - and they are markets where WN has a disproportionately large share of the market compared to competitors.

The DOJ's statement that the legacy carriers are the problem with high fares is wrong. The reason for high fares is because there is not sufficient competition in markets to force fares down. The DOJ was right to be concerned about the concentration of the industry in the hands of a few players.

The error is in believing that WN or any other carrier that has a disproportionate share of the market can bring the fare down.

Furhter, there is no legal basis for arguing that any carrier should be excluded from or given preferential access to any market based on economic reasons. Slot controls exist legally solely for the purpose of ensuring operational integrity at airports where the demand for flights exceeds the capacity of those airports. There is no legal basis to say that DL or UA should be excluded from the bidding process for slots at DCA based, esp. based on the flawed logic that the DOJ used that the legacy carriers are the reason for high fares.

Further, there is abundant evidence that WN really doesn't compete very well against other legacy carriers and really doesn't want to. The F9 merger offer was an attempt to eliminate competition but F9 employees rejected the takeover so WN turned to FL who did sell. WN has eliminated far more cities as a result of the FL merger than any legacy carrier eliminated in any of their mergers. Fares have significantly been raised. Further, WN was not successful in growing in PHL against US and has chosen not to try to maintain the same level of operations at ATL.

WN wants DAL to be an airport it can dominate because that is where it does the best job. The WN network for years was built around serving markets that other carriers did not and in moving into markets where it has the potential to dominate.

You can defend the Wright Amendment all you want but there is no precedent anywhere else in the US and in few other places of the world where there are barriers between carriers at two airports in the same city. WN pried open Love Field after the city of Dallas wanted to close it when DFW was opened. WN has sat on Love Field and slowly tried to pry it open piece by piece to allow WN to expand its network but the big break came in the negotiations when it won the right to fly to all of the US. The ending of the restrictions that prohibited WN from flying longhaul domestic from DAL is great... and fully competitive. Limiting AA or WN's ability to fly from DAL or DFW is extraordinarily uncompetitive and legally indefensible.

The reason why DL said nothing before is because they had the opportunity to fly from DAL, which they have done within the restrictions of the WA.

Now that DL's ability to continue service from DAL and to expand it when the WA falls is at risk, DL is most certainly going to complain. UA's ability to fly from DAL is not threatened so there is no reason for them to complain at this point.

It also doesn't matter whether UA wants to bid on slots at DCA or not. If the settlement is contrary to law and even one party raises the question, that is all that is needed.

The reason why the Wright Amendment hasn't been challenged by other network carriers is because they were not threatened by the ability of any carrier to fly from DAL to markets which they served - other than AA.

DL is not going to allow WN to be able to fly from DAL to DL's key markets when DL cannot because of a capricious and legally indefensible statement by a DOJ official and was parroted by AA/US execs.

You can dish out all of the mudslinging at me you want but it won't change the fact that there are significant legal issues that have been raised because of the AA/US settlement agreement that directly affect both DL and WN as well as the Wright Amendment and DAL.

They will be resolved and DL will be given the chance to bid on assets in the divestiture package including gate access at DAL or everything has been hoping to accomplish when Wright falls plus all of the expansion on the east coast at DCA and LGA is at risk.

All DL wants is the ability to maintain and grow its access at DAL and bid for slots at DCA based on its market share at DCA which will be 20% of the size of US.

The law is clearly on DL's side. AA/US, WN, B6, and the DOJ just didn't expect that anyone would be willing to challenge the ruling and all of the assumptions that went into them.

All of them were wrong.


I am more than willing to watch this case and see if those who have argued that DL won't gain access to the DCA slots and the Love Field gates are right or not.

 

[robbedagain]

Im not saying dl will not gain access to dca or lga or dal slots.... but several people includ bill baerbhime self n their lawyer made quite clear DL n UA can APPLY FOR SLOTS BUT FED REG SAY THATS UNLIKELY THEY WOULD GET ANY. I am still trying to find an article that clearly says dl is takin them to court ti challenge or suing them to allow them to bid on slots. But ive also noticed no other airline is makin loud noises bout the slot divestures but delta

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

First, in one sentence it is very easy to show that your single fare search means nothing because there is aggregate data to show that WN's fares are at or higher than network carriers in market where WN does NOT have to compete. WN has to compete in ATL-DTW which is why the fare is lower. It follows the same pattern as network carriers in markets where it has a disproportionately large share of the market to extract a fare premium.

 
So it's bad for a carrier like WN to high(er) fares in a market with limited competiton, but at the same time, it would be OK for DL to get even more slots not just at DCA but also LGA.  How this would foster competition and lead to low(er) fares I'm not exactly sure.

 

The DOJ's statement that the legacy carriers are the problem with high fares is wrong. The reason for high fares is because there is not sufficient competition in markets to force fares down.

 
Again, if the reason for higher fares is not enough competition, how is one to achieve low fares if additional carriers, in addition to the legacy carriers, are not allowed into slot-controlled airports like DCA and LGA?

 
 
The DOJ was right to be concerned about the concentration of the industry in the hands of a few players.

The error is in believing that WN or any other carrier that has a disproportionate share of the market can bring the fare down.

 
I'll ask again, how could DL, by gaining more slots at LGA and DCA bring fares down?

Furhter, there is no legal basis for arguing that any carrier should be excluded from or given preferential access to any market based on economic reasons. Slot controls exist legally solely for the purpose of ensuring operational integrity at airports where the demand for flights exceeds the capacity of those airports. There is no legal basis to say that DL or UA should be excluded from the bidding process for slots at DCA based, esp. based on the flawed logic that the DOJ used that the legacy carriers are the reason for high fares.

 
Sure there is precedent where a carrier or carriers are given preferential treatment, preferential access.  Don't you remember what happenned in the US-DL slot swap at DCA-LGA? 

The reason why DL said nothing before is because they had the opportunity to fly from DAL, which they have done within the restrictions of the WA.

Now that DL's ability to continue service from DAL and to expand it when the WA falls is at risk, DL is most certainly going to complain. UA's ability to fly from DAL is not threatened so there is no reason for them to complain at this point.

 
Besides DL, it isn't known what other carrier would like the 2 gates at DAL.  It may be that B6 jumps in, or AS, or VX - who knows?  DL might just have to place the highest bid.  Simple as that.

 
You can dish out all of the mudslinging at me you want but it won't change the fact that there are significant legal issues that have been raised because of the AA/US settlement agreement that directly affect both DL and WN as well as the Wright Amendment and DAL.

 
Commenting too much on the legal issues is beyond my pay grade.  But you're fooling yourself if you think that the gov can't mandate how to re-distribute limited resources at slot-controlled airports.  IMHO it's been done in the past and will probably be done again.  Especially since there current US administration is all about spreading the wealth around

They will be resolved and DL will be given the chance to bid on assets in the divestiture package including gate access at DAL or everything has been hoping to accomplish when Wright falls plus all of the expansion on the east coast at DCA and LGA is at risk.

 
Seriously?  DL's entire expansion is at risk just because of this?  Sounds like a bit of hyperbole?

 

 

[swamt]

swamt,
is it perhaps you that are upset? Four consecutive posts? Mind running faster than your fingers can process?
 

The issue is simply regarding access to the gates at Love Field. By your own account, WN has had conversations and was hoping to be able to gain access to add'l gates at Love Field.

Given DL's interests and the significant legal uncertainty regarding the basis the DOJ used to exclude one carrier or two from the process, then there is a very good chance that WN won't end up with the gates that AA will have to abandon and further the whole issue of slots at DCA and LGA might be at stake.

The DOJ officials who made the comment that the legacy airlines are the problems and they will not be allowed to participate in the process has a whole lot of explaining to do. He needs to either withdraw that statement of provide DL and UA, if they choose to participate, and DL certainty does, in the divestment bidding process.

There is a whole lot of data that DL can and will produce that will counter the DOJ's notion that WN is a low cost or low fare producer or that it has been blocked from being able to acquire assets at DCA and LGA in the past.

Further, it is unprecedented in the United States for a carrier to control as much of a single airport as WN does at DAL and that is all directly related to the Wright Amendment which was a NEGOTIATED COMPROMISE - your own coworker said the same thing - between AA and WN who have been trying to keep each other out of their territory. It was never based on the idea of allowing free and open competition at airports in the Metroplex.
The simple fact is that AA and WN should be free to enter each other's markets as they wish, just as occurs at MDW, another WN large operation.

And so should DL, and every other airline.

The Wright Amendment and its revisions is the most protectionist and anti-competitive pieces of aviation law that was written and it was done to resolve a conflict between AA and WN, to the complete detriment of consumers in N. Texas and other carriers.

The fact that WN has the share of the market it does at fares that in many cases exceed that of AA demonstrates the flaw that WN is helping consumers.

You and your coworkers at WN are the ones who are clearly worried. DL isn't about to be excluded from a market because of a two-way agreement between you and AA. All of WN's hopes about the WA are up in the air now... along with the whole idea that WN should be able to control even 16 of 20 gates in the presence of a desire from other carriers beyond even DL who might be interested in serving Love Field.

A challenge to the legality of the Wright Amendment itself is at stake if DL doesn't gain the ability to not only bid on the gates and the slots at DCA.

Your founder did a fine job of building a nice little empire. Let's see how fast the DOJ changes it mind and puts in writing processes to ensure that all airlines are allowed to bid on the assets that become available which will mean that the grandiose dreams that WN has had about picking up slots and gates will have to compete with DL's, an airline which WN has not exactly rolled over quite the way it has with most others.

And that is precisely why you are afraid of what will happen when you really have to compete with DL in the bidding process for these assets.

swamt,
is it perhaps you that are upset? Four consecutive posts? Mind running faster than your fingers can process?
*  Not upset at all.  LOL.
 
The issue is simply regarding access to the gates at Love Field. By your own account, WN has had conversations and was hoping to be able to gain access to add'l gates at Love Field.
*  Correct.  SWA has had convo's about obtaining the 2 gates at LF that AA has agreed to divest.  However, you failed to grasp the notion that I also stated, if no other airline bids and is awarded the 2 gates, that SWA would like to use them, NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER have I said SWA will get those 2 gates.
 

The DOJ officials who made the comment that the legacy airlines are the problems and they will not be allowed to participate in the process has a whole lot of explaining to do. He needs to either withdraw that statement of provide DL and UA, if they choose to participate, and DL certainty does, in the divestment bidding process.
*  Once again, I never said any DOJ official made the comment that the legacy airlines are the problem, and that they will not be allowed to participate, NEVER.  You are twisting all this up just like Overspeed does.  What they did state is that it will be more than likely that they (DL and UA) will not be awarded any slots even if they were to bid on them.
 
There is a whole lot of data that DL can and will produce that will counter the DOJ's notion that WN is a low cost or low fare producer or that it has been blocked from being able to acquire assets at DCA and LGA in the past.

Further, it is unprecedented in the United States for a carrier to control as much of a single airport as WN does at DAL and that is all directly related to the Wright Amendment which was a NEGOTIATED COMPROMISE - your own coworker said the same thing - between AA and WN who have been trying to keep each other out of their territory. It was never based on the idea of allowing free and open competition at airports in the Metroplex.
The simple fact is that AA and WN should be free to enter each other's markets as they wish, just as occurs at MDW, another WN large operation.
*  Then produce the data-- and BTW, who cares.  Also don't care about your rant about an airline controlling the majority of traffic at any given airport, it happens all over the US.  Get over that.
 
The Wright Amendment and its revisions is the most protectionist and anti-competitive pieces of aviation law that was written and it was done to resolve a conflict between AA and WN, to the complete detriment of consumers in N. Texas and other carriers.
*  The W/A was not written to resolve a conflict between AA and SWA.  You think you know it all, but yet you know nothing.  W/A was brought into existence to help protect the new DFW airport from failing or growing.  Yes the W/A is a protectionist, to help protect AA at DFW, NOT to protect SWA at LF and that is fact.  You need to get better educated about the W/A before you spout off about it.
 
The fact that WN has the share of the market it does at fares that in many cases exceed that of AA demonstrates the flaw that WN is helping consumers.
*  Like I have previously said, compare AA to SWA flts anywhere on the internet, get the entire package, and all in rate that includes bag fees, relo's, transfers, and upgrades for a family of 2-4 and you will see that SWA is the cheapest.  If you only compare the ticket prices alone, prior to any taxes, fees, and added charges, then yes you will find them higher, but 98% of travelers have to include the "all in rate"  as most have all kinds of baggage.
 
You and your coworkers at WN are the ones who are clearly worried. DL isn't about to be excluded from a market because of a two-way agreement between you and AA. All of WN's hopes about the WA are up in the air now... along with the whole idea that WN should be able to control even 16 of 20 gates in the presence of a desire from other carriers beyond even DL who might be interested in serving Love Field.
*  Myself and my co-workers are not worried at all.  You really do nee to get more educated on the W/A and the divestures that are involved that include Love Field with the W/A going away.
 
A challenge to the legality of the Wright Amendment itself is at stake if DL doesn't gain the ability to not only bid on the gates and the slots at DCA.
*  Really.  C'mon.  Anyone can challenge what ever they want to challenge.  Like WNMECH already told you, good luck with that---it's not going to happen.
 
Your founder did a fine job of building a nice little empire. Let's see how fast the DOJ changes it mind and puts in writing processes to ensure that all airlines are allowed to bid on the assets that become available which will mean that the grandiose dreams that WN has had about picking up slots and gates will have to compete with DL's, an airline which WN has not exactly rolled over quite the way it has with most others.
*  BTW, while your at the store getting those tissues, you may want to get some Q-tips while your at it and clean out your ears.  I have already told you numerous times that the DOJ officials have stated they will not block anyone from bidding, they can bid all they want to, but, more than likely they WILL NOT be awarded any slots that are to be divested within the agreement to settle the suit for the merger.  Good god, how many times do you have to be told this, you are like repeating to a little 4year old.
 
And that is precisely why you are afraid of what will happen when you really have to compete with DL in the bidding process for these assets.
*  Oh yea I am just soooo afraid of what will happen when (not me, but SWA) we have to compete with DL in the bidding process for these assets.  Let's see;  advantage SWA for DOJ saying they will goto LCC's.  Advantage SWA, as SWA will increase traffic in any airport they have started service to--(ever heard of the Southwest effect??)  I will say this, I don't know of a phrase like the Delta effect, anyone else?  Didn't think so.  Good luck with your DL parade to get the DCA and LGA slots your going to need it.   Why don't you have Delta approach AA personally and discuss those gates at LF?  Not going to happen. 
 
Don't know what your obsession is with DL vs SWA vs W/A and AA but it seems your not GRASPING the entire picture in front of you.  Now go do some more research and get back to us, it is entertaining to say the least...

 

[swamt]

Im not saying dl will not gain access to dca or lga or dal slots.... but several people includ bill baerbhime self n their lawyer made quite clear DL n UA can APPLY FOR SLOTS BUT FED REG SAY THATS UNLIKELY THEY WOULD GET ANY. I am still trying to find an article that clearly says dl is takin them to court ti challenge or suing them to allow them to bid on slots. But ive also noticed no other airline is makin loud noises bout the slot divestures but delta

You won't find it.  It would be a huge waste of money to sue over it, but by all means pls do let them sue...