The Job You Bring Is The Job You Keep

[ClueByFour]

It all relative. That's the point. Those furloughed provided employment for all those who have jobs today.

Maybe on the US side. Certainly not on the HP side (they were hiring).

Folks have this preconception that HP was in great financial shape before any merger. I can personally tell you from the high ups that I spoke with from both sides, that without merger partner, there would be no investors lured, no investor money and both companies would be on the cliff. U closer to that cliff than HP by year's end.

I'd expect that to be the line from CCY. US was already hanging over the cliff--without the merger it's lights out. HP had not even gone Chapter 11 yet. HP did not "need" US.

I'm sure we will agree to disagree on that premise, but that's the crux--HP folks had some degree of expectation of a job. In the grander scheme of things, that's much more than US folks had (much less furloughees).

HP and U have this furough language in their contracts on accrual of seniority while on furlough. Now that there is a merger, its all of a sudden profoundly unfair?

In the context of this merger, it's brutally unfair. I'm not saying that in the case of each standalone entity it's unfair (although I do think the concept to be a bit flawed).

U happens to be the airline that sacrificed 3 concessions and 7,500 folks on furlough to keep the airline floating. Otherwise there would have been no investors.

That assumes HP needed them--nebulous. US was DOA without it. HP made money in it's last standalone quarter. To imply that US folks on furlough somehow "saved" a job at HP is a stretch at best (and justification for the silly AFA integration policies at worst).

So what now? We punish the folks that went out on furlough by arbitrarily changing the CBA.

Or you punish those who had all sorts of expectations of moving up the ladder at HP. "Punish" assumes that you accept the premise that someone on furlough is or should accure and maintain bidding seniority ahead of someone who brought a job to the merger. I think that's crazy, but I don't work in a union shop.

To safisfy whom exactly? AFA is guided by the policies that are set and the contract language that was negotiated.

Best way to decide this argument is to bring it to the AFA Board who don't have a dog in this fight and let the Board decide whether its fair to change the policy at this juncture. With regard to USAirways CBA and HP, you can't just pluck out the language as if accruing seniority while on furlough has no significance anymore.

[post="306956"][/post]​

Accuring seniority on furlough at US as a standalone carrier makes sense. The merger makes things sticky.

Again, I have a hard time dreaming of any other situation where somebody who has been effectively laid off from their job is recalled and is put in a situation to vault over people who had a job at the time of the merger.

 

[goodgirl37]

An arbitrator can not violate the CBA. U contract has furloughed f/as still on the U roster accruing seniority for bidding purposes, not longevity. It speaks to furloughs and is not silent on continued accural of seniority.

In addition, AFA has the policy which states, DOH.

In the AWA contract, a furloughee ALSO accrues seniority for bidding purposes sec.21-1.

So, I it begs the question...how can someone assume that an arbitrator would decide to paste furloughees at the bottom of the seniority list and that furloughees should not accrue seniority while on furlough, when the same furlough seniority accruing language exists in the HP contract for HP f/as IF they were furloughed?

I find this assumption pretty slanted.

[post="306905"][/post]​

Thank you PITBULL - Very knowledgeable and great at what you do and have done. It is AWA wants to go against what their own contract says - accrual for bidding not pay - makes sense and that is fair and the way it will go - Thanks for clarifying that for ALL of us.... The stapler is out of staples folks. AA used them all up..

 

[ItsNotThatSerious]

US F/As have eternal recall rights, there is no limit.

You need protections like this when the company furloughs OVER 50% of the seniority list.

And like PitBull said, HP F/As have the same protections in thier contract, as well as the AFA DOH by-laws. If they found it all so unfair they had years to change it and put themselves at risk.

[post="306957"][/post]​

Very well stated Light.

 

[goodgirl37]

Very well stated Light.

[post="307029"][/post]​

I wil second that 3 times

 

[traderjake]

There's a difference between what is legal and what is ethical.

Stealing an Americ West Flight Attendant's job because you can legally does not make you right, it makes you a lowlife. Especially in light of the fact that without America West we would probably have no job.

 

[goodgirl37]

There's a difference between what is legal and what is ethical.

Stealing an Americ West Flight Attendant's job because you can legally does not make you right, it makes you a lowlife. Especially in light of the fact that without America West we would probably have no job.

[post="307126"][/post]​

Just so you know Jake ... Noone is stealing anyones job!!! There are fences and you can't "bump and flush" someone!!! If you think I am a lowlife having been furloughed twice.. Maybe you should try it out once and then respond to me... You sit in my shoes.. on furlough.. for years... and tell me what you are telling me right now!! I didn't think so!!!

 

[ItsNotThatSerious]

There's a difference between what is legal and what is ethical.

Stealing an Americ West Flight Attendant's job because you can legally does not make you right,  it makes you a lowlife.  Especially in light of the fact that without America West we would probably have no job.

[post="307126"][/post]​

Trader, I assume you work for US/west so former HP. Im glad you realize that without MERGING the two companies into one that we would ALL be out of work. No one is going to steal any job. Have your heard of no Bump and Flush? What we want is our hire date to count weather on furlough or active. Geeze.

 

[traderjake]

Trader,  I assume you work for US/west so former HP.   Im glad you realize that without MERGING the two companies into one that we would ALL be out of work.  No one is going to steal any job.  Have your heard of no Bump and Flush?  What we want is our hire date to count weather on furlough or active.  Geeze.

[post="307133"][/post]​

I am a US East and former Piedmont pilot. I experienced first hand how unfair DOH was during that merger.. DOH gave Piedmont Captains' jobs to First Officers that could not hold Captain at USAir or PSA. That was stealing and it was legal.

It created animosity that exists today.

You're wrong, we need AWA alot more than they need us.

 

[ItsNotThatSerious]

I am a US East and former Piedmont pilot. I experienced first hand how unfair DOH was during that merger.. DOH gave Piedmont Captain's jobs to First Officers that could not hold it at USAir or PSA. That was stealing and it was legal.

It created animosity that exists even now.

Your wrong, we needed AWA alot more than they needed us.

[post="307149"][/post]​

Trader, Its not stealing its senority. Please don't let your 16 year old bitterness cloud your judgement today. Are you still an F/O? If not then it all worked out in the end.

 

[traderjake]

I am a First Officer and I'm not bitter. It's a miracle USAirways was not liquidated. I appreciate that fact every time I go to work. I could have left for another job in those 16 years and I chose to stay.

Giving a Blockholder AWA F/A's job to a Reserve or Furloughed US F/A is stealing and in your heart of hearts you know it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Trader, Its not stealing its senority.

[post="307150"][/post]​

Just a hypothetical question.....

Assume that a magic wand is waved and the day after integration everyone has setteled where ever they desire with the only limitation being what their position on the combined list will allow them. If you can hold the same trips, the same equipment, the same days off, the same vacation, etc, as you could before the integration, is your seniority the same as it was before?

Jim

 

[ItsNotThatSerious]

I am a First Officer and I'm not bitter. It's a miracle USAirways was not liquidated. I appreciate that fact every time I go to work. I could have left for another job in those 16 years and I chose to stay.

Giving a Blockholder AWA F/A's job to a Reserve or Furloughed US F/A is stealing and in your heart of hearts you know it.

[post="307154"][/post]​

Im on furlough right now...I do think my 1999 hiredate should be mine from now on. On whatever list Im on.

 

[Breath_of_Fresh_USAirways]

Just so you know Jake ... Noone is stealing anyones job!!! There are fences and you can't "bump and flush" someone!!! If you think I am a lowlife having been furloughed twice.. Maybe you should try it out once and then respond to me... You sit in my shoes.. on furlough.. for years... and tell me what you are telling me right now!! I didn't think so!!!

[post="307132"][/post]​

Obviously, by the question that I am about to ask, I'm not an F/A.

Why, oh why, would anyone stay "furloughed" for years and years? I'm trying to understand why you would want to come back -- over and over again? I mean in almost any other "profession" you'd go get another job and move on. You've got some specialized skills and training, but much of that is very transferrable. Sure, there's some of us that have jet-A running through our veins, but if we have to, we move on...

I'm assuming that while you're on "furlough" you can and do work another job? So, can you accrue "seniority" at another job, too? And not lose any at the old? Isn't that "double-dipping?" Or, do you just "sit in your shoes" and not do anything and wait to be recalled? Please help me to understand this thinking.

😛h34r:

 

[PITbull]

There's a difference between what is legal and what is ethical.

Stealing an Americ West Flight Attendant's job because you can legally does not make you right, it makes you a lowlife. Especially in light of the fact that without America West we would probably have no job.

[post="307126"][/post]​

We owe no one a job. We owe the employees of US Airways and those who were furloughed and gave up their jobs temporarily to keep U alive in order to position itself for a transaction and wait for better days to be recalled.

Simple and very ethical. Your just blinded by what you see as a new reality.

There is no seniority issue problem except in those minds who are in fear of change or meging, losing some idenity. Understandable. But hesteria is not necessary.

You need to calm yourself down. B)

 

[PITbull]

I am a First Officer and I'm not bitter. It's a miracle USAirways was not liquidated. I appreciate that fact every time I go to work. I could have left for another job in those 16 years and I chose to stay.

Giving a Blockholder AWA F/A's job to a Reserve or Furloughed US F/A is stealing and in your heart of hearts you know it.

[post="307154"][/post]​

Dating a f/a or something? 😉