The Job You Bring Is The Job You Keep

[hp_fa]

There is no seniority issue problem except in those minds who are in fear of change or meging, losing some idenity. Understandable. But hesteria is not necessary.

[post="307225"][/post]​

If that is the case, then why not just agree to relative seniority and we shouldn't need any fences.

 

[PITbull]

hp,

As I have said over and over and over again...a seniority issue is only in your mind. Why would we agree to change a policy when there will not be a seniority issue when the integration takes place. We are only 4,300 f/as. HP is 2,700. The top end folks are retiring because as you have said, we are a more senior airline.

Policies have been here for eons and mergers have been here for eons. We will not change policy on a mispercieved notion or hesteria. We are attriting here at U, HP is not.

Have you focused on our agreement? Have you focused on our DCP? Do you know what airline you merged with? We have the lowest cost of any carrier out there. YOUR CEO calls our contract the "the industry's leading contract".

Does that statment give you any hint?

Your focus and strength should be in improvements while your group is in section 6. Otherwise, your folks will attrit as well.

 

[hulagirl]

If that is the case, then why not just agree to relative seniority and we shouldn't need any fences.

[post="307269"][/post]​

The seniority issue will prevail with date of hire whether you like it or not. You are beating a dead horse. Why?
As soon as the BOD meeting is over, and we are laughed out of the building, will you then stop this whining about seniority integration?
Date of hire is fair for everyone. As I have said before, you cannot accrue seniority while in the womb.

 

[heyray]

gotta love dem pit bulls! singular and plural

 

[lax]

The seniority issue will prevail with date of hire whether you like it or not. You are beating a dead horse. Why?
As soon as the BOD meeting is over, and we are laughed out of the building, will you then stop this whining about seniority integration?
Date of hire is fair for everyone. As I have said before, you cannot accrue seniority while in the womb.

[post="307338"][/post]​

your right, it probably is a "dead horse" issue, yet you ALWAYS seem to find it in you to respond when someone posts an opinion against doh, why?

as far as whining goes i dont think you've seen anything yet. wait until its(your precious doh) official. i can tell purely by your boisterous postings that you are senior, thus your stance, along with most of the usarien crew is no surprise. but lets face it, the seniority arguments are not about short haul routes vs long haul, not international vs domestic, not who wants to go to phx vs phl or clt, and certainly not about fairness. its is and always will be about job security and protection from furlough, especially in this day and age. losing the job security you once had does not go away overnight. everytime you think of "that" person working the job you feel you should have had still sickens you many years later (ask many twaers). not to mention if theres a downturn or internal consolidation, which there more than likely will be (very common with acquisitions), most people know layoffs are soon to follow. so get used to the whining(as you call it) and hope that it doesnt escalate into something more.

in regards to doh being fair for everyone, you, i and most know thats ridiculous whether we admit it or not. in fact its a laugh. not to say that it is never appropriate but should definitely be used subjectively. anyone who has an inkling of business acqumen knows there are often numerous ways to accomplish many things. to insist there is only one way highlights yours and others self interest. btw, last i checked you only accrue seniority at the airline you work for. it is not some universal system, right? if im wrong, i'll send over my aunt who worked 20yrs at eastern and now at ata and lets see how willing you are to give her, her universal seniority number. thats "the only fair way" right?

ps. its too bad you lack any compassion or sensitivity toward your own coworkers opinions. how sad, you must be a joy to work with. you are definitely "senior and seared."

 

[Twicebaked]

It will all end up in front of a arbitrator and will probably end up DOH for active employees and all furloughed people will end up on the bottom.

[post="305499"][/post]​

If the AFA BOD does NOT remove DOH it will remain DOH. An arbitrator can do NOTHING to change the bylaws of a union and/or contract. Sorry won't happen.

 

[hulagirl]

your right, it probably is a "dead horse" issue, yet you ALWAYS seem to find it in you to respond when someone posts an opinion against doh, why?

as far as whining goes i dont think you've seen anything yet.  wait until its(your precious doh) official.  i can tell purely by your boisterous postings that you are senior, thus your stance, along with most of the usarien crew is no surprise.  but lets face it, the seniority arguments are not about short haul routes vs long haul, not international vs domestic, not who wants to go to phx vs phl or clt, and certainly not  about fairness.  its is and always will be about job security and protection from furlough, especially in this day and age.  losing the job security you once had does not go away overnight.  everytime you think of "that" person working the job you feel you should have had still sickens you many years later (ask many twaers).  not to mention if theres a downturn or internal consolidation, which there more than likely will be (very common with acquisitions), most people know layoffs are soon to follow.  so get used to the whining(as you call it) and hope that it doesnt escalate into something more. 

in regards to doh being fair for everyone, you, i and most know thats ridiculous whether we admit it or not.  in fact its a laugh.  not to say that it is never appropriate but should definitely be used subjectively.  anyone who has an inkling of business acqumen knows there are often numerous ways to accomplish many things.  to insist there is only one way highlights yours and others self interest.  btw, last i checked you only accrue seniority at the airline you work for.  it is not some universal system, right?  if im wrong, i'll send over my aunt who worked 20yrs at eastern and now at ata and lets see how willing you are to give her, her universal seniority number.  thats "the only fair way" right?

ps.  its too bad you lack any compassion or sensitivity toward your own coworkers opinions.  how sad, you must be a joy to work with.  you are definitely "senior and seared."

[post="307410"][/post]​

Excuse me, but have you actually READ that contract of yours? Have you ever READ the AFA Constitution and ByLaws?
I do not lack compassion for anyone. However, I do not believe that AWA flight attendants have a leg to stand on when THEY (and I mean all 287 of them) are attempting to STEAL seniority that they have NOT accrued.
In addition, I have already stated too much regarding my personal business. My seniority remains just where it is today. I am not interested in "slotting" my bid position into an area that it doesn't belong in.
Once we are integrated, YOU will see how wrong it was to support such a measure as "proportional integration" and you will see that date of hire is fair. YOU may not like it where you land, but you will get used to it. And if you don't, you will probably end up being so miserable that you quit or get yourself fired.
As for job security, you work for an airline. There isn't any job security. However, the merger just gave us a reprieve from a trip down the bankruptcy road.
Try on a positive attitude. You may just like the way it fits.

 

[Whatnow?]

Excuse me, but have you actually READ that contract of yours? Have you ever READ the AFA Constitution and ByLaws?
I do not lack compassion for anyone. However, I do not believe that AWA flight attendants have a leg to stand on when THEY (and I mean all 287 of them) are attempting to STEAL seniority that they have NOT accrued.
In addition, I have already stated too much regarding my personal business. My seniority remains just where it is today. I am not interested in "slotting" my bid position into an area that it doesn't belong in.
Once we are integrated, YOU will see how wrong it was to support such a measure as "proportional integration" and you will see that date of hire is fair. YOU may not like it where you land, but you will get used to it. And if you don't, you will probably end up being so miserable that you quit or get yourself fired.
Try on a positive attitude. You may just like the way it fits.

[post="307426"][/post]​

Why is this soo hard to understand? Everybody gets what they have rightfully acquired or accrued for the time they have been flying.....why is that soo hard to understand? The 'USARIENS" (funny by the way) have worked just as hard as the AWA people have so why should ANYONE be advantaged over the other. And for pete's sake, don't you even know ANYTHING about your own union hpfa? 🙄

 

[BoeingBoy]

My seniority remains just where it is today.

[post="307426"][/post]​

Not picking on you, hulagirl, but you just happened to be the one that phrased that just right today. I've asked this hypothetical question a few times and never seem to get an answer, so here goes again.....

Assume a combined list is put together - how matters not to the question. Furthur assume that on the day of integration, someone has waved a magic wand and everyone is where they'd like to be with the only limitation being that they can only go where their position on the combined list allows.

If, on that day, you can fly the same trips, have the same days off, be the same level of blockholder or reserve, get the same vacation, etc, is your seniority the same as the day before?

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

Not picking on you, hulagirl, but you just happened to be the one that phrased that just right today. I've asked this hypothetical question a few times and never seem to get an answer, so here goes again.....

Assume a combined list is put together - how matters not to the question. Furthur assume that on the day of integration, someone has waved a magic wand and everyone is where they'd like to be with the only limitation being that they can only go where their position on the combined list allows.

If, on that day, you can fly the same trips, have the same days off, be the same level of blockholder or reserve, get the same vacation, etc, is your seniority the same as the day before?

Jim

[post="307430"][/post]​

You will not get an answer to that from any of the hardcore DOH proponents. It shoots their point (and the subsequent windfall) in the foot.

Someone in this thread said something along the lines of "Everybody gets what they've earned while they are flying." Fact of the matter is than when recalls start, furloughed US folks are going to get not only what they got while flying, but what they "got" (and that's a term I use loosely) while sitting around or working another job.

But Jim has a good point: if you can hold the same relative trips, days off, line or reserve...... Does it make a difference? No, but it would do two things:

1. People working forever for the "dead airline walking" won't catch a windfall and

2. The HP folks are going to be the first to be laid off when things go south.

Given that HP was clearly the savior (or healthier) company when the merger took place, this would be grossly unfair under any other circumstance except for the wunderland known as the AFA.

 

[hulagirl]

Not picking on you, hulagirl, but you just happened to be the one that phrased that just right today.  I've asked this hypothetical question a few times and never seem to get an answer, so here goes again.....

Assume a combined list is put together - how matters not to the question.  Furthur assume that on the day of integration, someone has waved a magic wand and everyone is where they'd like to be with the only limitation being that they can only go where their position on the combined list allows. 

If, on that day, you can fly the same trips, have the same days off, be the same level of blockholder or reserve, get the same vacation, etc, is your seniority the same as the day before?

Jim

[post="307430"][/post]​

When the fences come down, what people on the AWA side (the FEW that don't understand DOH) are failing to realize, failing to read from AFA, and failing to understand is, there will be no flush and bump.
When I refer to "my seniority will be what it is today" I mean simply that...I have "X" amount of years of seniority, and that isn't going to change. Yes, there will be people transferring in to PHX, and yes, there will be people transferring out of PHX, and yes, they will probably be more senior than our number 1. They have been flying longer than we have!
I don't share a "hatred" of people more senior to me at AWA. Before this merger, some flight attendants in my seniority level, and below, were writing up seniors and saying "they have been flying long enough" or "they aren't nice". This is/was wrong. Now that we have merged, there is a new seniority to contend with!
Hence, my point:I expect that I will be working the same type of trips when the fences come down. I expect that our seniors will be working the same type of trips. I expect that our reserves will be also.

 

[EricLv2Fish]

Well, sadly we live in a society today that thinks if something is legal it is fair. Seniority in both companies brings with it levels of status. The more seniority the more status. The status of a 19 year FA at AWA is not the same as the status of a 19 year US Airways FA. If DOH is strickly used then some folks will lose status, and others will gain status. Is it legal...or is it fair? Why not keep allow each FA to keep their realitive status?

 

[hulagirl]

You will not get an answer to that from any of the hardcore DOH proponents. It shoots their point (and the subsequent windfall) in the foot.

Someone in this thread said something along the lines of "Everybody gets what they've earned while they are flying." Fact of the matter is than when recalls start, furloughed US folks are going to get not only what they got while flying, but what they "got" (and that's a term I use loosely) while sitting around or working another job.

But Jim has a good point: if you can hold the same relative trips, days off, line or reserve...... Does it make a difference? No, but it would do two things:

1. People working forever for the "dead airline walking" won't catch a windfall and

2. The HP folks are going to be the first to be laid off when things go south.

Given that HP was clearly the savior (or healthier) company when the merger took place, this would be grossly unfair under any other circumstance except for the wunderland known as the AFA.

[post="307471"][/post]​

1)Read the financial news about the state of AWA had this merger no occured.
2)What windfall could anyone possibly be getting?
3)Should layoffs occur, they would occur to the same people with or without the merger.
4) The Savior is in the Holy Bible, not sitting in an office in Tempe, Arizona.

 

[EricLv2Fish]

3)Should layoffs occur, they would occur to the same people with or without the merger.
4) The Savior is in the Holy Bible, not sitting in an office in Tempe, Arizona.

[post="307478"][/post]​

hulagirl, I have to disagree with you on your 3rd point. All things being realitive, If the merger did not occur and layoffs were neccessary at HP less HP folks would be layed off than if HP folks are combined using striaght up DOH in a combined company layoff. As for your 4th point....amen. 😉

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hence, my point:I expect that I will be working the same type of trips. I expect that our seniors will be working the same type of trips. I expect that our reserves will be also.

[post="307476"][/post]​

If you read the above very closely, you'll see that I removed 5 words - "when the fences come down".

What if someone could devise some magical method of integrating the seniority lists that achieved exactly what you said you expected, but didn't require fences? In other words, what if you could work the same type of trips, the seniors could work the same type of trips, and the reserves could work the same type of trips - all from day 1 of the integration and no matter who moved where? Surely an impossible task, but if it could be done would it be fair?

Again, not picking on you - anybody can answer.

Jim