The Job You Bring Is The Job You Keep

[hulagirl]

If you read the above very closely, you'll see that I removed 5 words - "when the fences come down".

What if someone could devise some magical method of integrating the seniority lists that achieved exactly what you said you expected, but didn't require fences?  In other words, what if you could work the same type of trips, the seniors could work the same type of trips, and the reserves could work the same type of trips - all from day 1 of the integration and no matter who moved where?  Surely an impossible task, but if it could be done would it be fair?

Again, not picking on you - anybody can answer.

Jim

[post="307485"][/post]​

The point is that magic doesn't really happen (miracles DO).
The point is that both work groups (talking flight attendants, not pilots) have AFA and both workgroups need to abide by what is in the AFA Constitution and By Laws.
The point is that seniority is what it is--YEARS OF SERVICE AT A COMPANY.
I asked myself this question regarding this issue:what if the shoe were on the other foot? What if AWA was the more senior workforce and USAirways was the less senior workforce? Would the AWA flight attendants be fighting DOH? Or, would date of hire be "fair" then?
One has to do what is right in life, even if it doesn't benefit one at the time. Or, at least, that is how I live my life.
I appreciate your post, and understand that you are not picking on me. B)

 

[hulagirl]

hulagirl, I have to disagree with you on your 3rd point. All things being realitive, If the merger did not occur and layoffs were neccessary at HP less HP folks would be layed off than if HP folks are combined using striaght up DOH in a combined company layoff. As for your 4th point....amen. 😉

[post="307480"][/post]​

Eric, first of all, I appreciate your posts and attitude. Therefore, I don't mind if we disagree, as I think you are a fair-minded person, and sometimes people just have to agree to disagree.
Dealing with "what if's" and "shoulda, woulda, coulda's" can be debated from now until eternity.
Mr. Parker has stated that without the merger, AWA would need to raise some serious cash (I cannot recall the exact amount, but it was several million) to stay afloat, or we would end up in bankruptcy. Or worse.
The point is, that we have merged with USAirways, and we all need to get going on building a successful airline or we will all be out of work.
You do have a valid point regarding the numbers and layoffs. However, there are also voluntary furloughs, early-outs, and other types of incentives to reduce a workforce. There are flight attendants at AWA that are waiting to see if they are going to be offered an early out, and waiting to see what happens with a contract before they quit. There is no need for the doom and gloom, as it will all be a wash. I can understand the reserves being upset because they were used to always moving up, and now they probably wont move at all for a while. However, it IS the airline business, and we all knew the drill before signing on.
As someone else posted on this forum, it is not fair to change the rules in the middle of the game. It is an agreed-upon merger policy of AFA to integrate seniority by date of hire. This is why I keep saying that it is fair. It is. In a merger, no one is going to be absolutely happy with their seniority unless they are number 1, and the number 1 is a US Airways flight attendant.
Take care!

PS Do you really fish in that lake in Tempe?

 

[BoeingBoy]

As far as the AFA is concerned, I only know what I read in this forum, but it seems that it is pretty cut & dried for the two F/A groups. That's why I purposely didn't apply my question to a specific job classification. Heck, for purposes of my little theoretical exercise, the groups don't even have to be unionized. They only have to work for a company that uses DOH to establish seniority.

The point is that seniority is what it is--YEARS OF SERVICE AT A COMPANY.

You'll notice that I accented one letter in there, and for a reason. Let me use an example involving pilots, since I have a much better feel for the "numbers" in that occupation.

I meet someone somewhere. Early in the conversation, it is established that this person is a pilot for a major airline and was hired 17 years ago today - and that's all I know at that point.

One thing is established beyond doubt - their years of service at a company. But I have no idea which company. Are they senior enough to be captain on a wide-body flying to Europe or Asia? Are the so junior they've been furloughed? Are they somewhere in between?

All are possibilities. So what is their seniority?

Jim

[Edit - add ps]

ps - While it certainly wouldn't be universal, I suspect that if the shoe were on the other foot.....then the shoe would be on the other foot. Many of those currently complaining about how unfair DOH is would suddenly be extolling the fairness inherent in DOH while many of those currently expounding upon the fairness of DOH would be complaining about how unfair it is. Then there would be the great middle that is resigned to live with whatever the outcome without much complaint.

 

[hulagirl]

Sorry for the blinders, Boeing Boy... I was applying the rhetoric to the flight attendant seniority issue....I wouldn't touch the ALPA issue with a ten foot pole, as I am not familiar enough with it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry for the blinders, Boeing Boy... I was applying the rhetoric to the flight attendant seniority issue....I wouldn't touch the ALPA issue with a ten foot pole, as I am not familiar enough with it.

[post="307498"][/post]​

I only use the pilot example because I know that 17 years of longevity covers that range of possibilities, not to elicit an opinion on how ALPA should proceed. As I said, for the purposes of my little theoretical exercise it's the idea that counts - not specific groups, their union constitution & bylaws, whether they're represented by the same union or not. Just talking generalities.....

I really do appreciate your taking the time to play along with me.

Jim

 

[cltflyguy]

You know...some of you are so worried about things "today" that your not even thinking that "tomorrow" it maybe be completely different. Worrying is like a rocking chair. It takes lots of energy and gets you no where!

When i was hired with US. They told me it might be 15 or more years to hold a block in charlotte. Did i think that was fair? No! Did i take the job anyway? Yes! Did they tell me they would provide me years of employment? No! Did i take the job anyway? Yes. Did they tell me that things will always go in my favor as long as im with the company? No! Did i take the job anyway? Yes! No job today is 100% stable and No job promises any of us a future! We are all human and none of us likes the fear of the unknown. I have always looked at life as....whats meant to be is meant to be!! If its meant for me to be with this company 1-2-3-4-5 years from now then so be it. If not...well then it just wasn't meant to be and whether I like it or not....i know that life will go on! 😉

 

[skyflyr69]

Dating a f/a or something? 😉

[post="307226"][/post]​

Are you kidding? he's have to fend for himself then if its a U f/a.

 

[lax]

Excuse me, but have you actually READ that contract of yours? Have you ever READ the AFA Constitution and ByLaws?
I do not lack compassion for anyone. However, I do not believe that AWA flight attendants have a leg to stand on when THEY (and I mean all 287 of them) are attempting to STEAL seniority that they have NOT accrued.
In addition, I have already stated too much regarding my personal business. My seniority remains just where it is today. I am not interested in "slotting" my bid position into an area that it doesn't belong in.
Once we are integrated, YOU will see how wrong it was to support such a measure as "proportional integration" and you will see that date of hire is fair. YOU may not like it where you land, but you will get used to it. And if you don't, you will probably end up being so miserable that you quit or get yourself fired.
As for job security, you work for an airline. There isn't any job security. However, the merger just gave us a reprieve from a trip down the bankruptcy road.
Try on a positive attitude. You may just like the way it fits.

[post="307426"][/post]​

ugh, yes i have actually read my contract many times, but the more i look at it i notice there is no language regarding flight attendant seniority. oh, wait, i think i got something here...ahh no wonder...im not a flight attendant. obviously you have me confused with someone else.
but anyways my contract is irrelavent. im simply someone who is able to evaluate the issue from an unbiased position because i have nothing at stake. as i have stated ad nauseum, which you seem to always miss, is that the argument is not about WHAT is stated in the afa bylaws. the question is whether "what" is stated is FAIR? you have yet to give one logical reason why doh is the "only" fair way. i think you stated "you cant accrue seniority in the womb" or something silly to that effect. is that the best you can come up with. i mentioned that my aunt was a 20yr flight attendant with eastern and now with ata. according to your logic if she comes to the new U she should be due some time right? you know since shes been out of the womb for a while now and you seem to believe in universal seniority. last, i never said i supported "proportional integration," you just assume that i do because i disagree with your view. but using your assumption explain to everyone exactly how that wouldnt be FAIR? and please dont get "legal" and "fair" mixed up this time. and as far as STEALING lets look back on all of this two or three years from now, especially when all fences are down and the new U is a meaner LEANER airline. i'd be willing to bet we would all see clearly who the real THIEVES are.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

so many logical and rhetorical problems with this post.

The parties in this thread keep trying to imply that one method is unfair, because the poster's particular method is fair, without giving any evidence that the opposed-method is actually unfair.

I also have no dog in this fight. I don't think I even KNOW a flight attendent. But I do work in an area that weighs arguments and comes to a conclusion. The eveidence presented by the interested parties in this thread is largely crap. Actually, if I were arbitrating, hulagirl would win hands down.

 

[Travelpro72]

The AFA C&B's are written and are a done deal. Whether any of us here find them fair makes no difference. HP f/a's voted AFA in knowing what their merger policy was. OK, so some feel they saved "our" US's rear ends. If you didn't merge with us you would have with someone else. HP will most certainly not get the C&B's changed but may possibly get mgmt to set the pay scale so that US-east and US-west match. We cap out the same but the pay steps are way off at US-east. This has been said so many times but its to the point of annoying, why didn't HP think of changing unions before this all came about. Because a few at HP are not happy with what "they" voted for, we at the "old" or US-east should suffer for it? How is that fair?????? The nervous folks at HP and their one base operation have right to feel that way. It does not mean that you change what you agreed to at this point of the game. So you "HP" feel it unfair or even outdated? OK, when were you going to consider your campaine to "CHANGE THE C&B's"? Maybe the old HP AFA president should have their hand out of the cookie jar and looking to change those ol' C&B's before. Nobody really knows what coulda woulda shoulda.... What I do know is that we all agreed to AFA and its C&B's. If AFA changes the C&B's for HP then we should be able to change alot of things that we dont feel suit us CORRECT???? 😉

 

[hublablebla]

It seems to me there ifs so much misinformation here. How do you know what the AWA fa's really want? What if I told you that the reason we want to change the bylaws has nothing to do with shafting our counterparts at U? The reason we want the bylaws changed is so that we can talk to you about a more fair integration process. All I have heard from the U side is that you have to have DOH. What if I told you most AWA fa's could care less about giving you DOH. We want PHX protected. You have over 2000 fa's senior to our #1, so as positions open in PHX, we will have our bidding power(seniority) diluted every time a transfer comes in. There will never be any hope for the reserve in PHX, so they will end up quitting and transferring, thus opening up positions for senior U fa's to transfer in. Over time (2-3 years if PHX is not given LT fence protection) PHX will end up a fairly senior US base and the AWA fa's will be the one's feeling the pain.

Why can't we have relative seniority in PHX? A seniority list for PHX will be made in a proportional way between the active U fa's and the AWA fa's.(Bases on numbers, not DOH) If there are openings, and a U fa wants to move to PHX, they can, but they will move in at a relative seniority. There would be less attrition(good for the company) and it would give the AWA fa's some hope that you guys at U don't just want to roll over us.

The change in bylaws is just an attempt to get you guys to see thing from a different point of view. If we are unsuccessful, there will still be opportunities for us to protect ourselves through fence agreements, etc. I could be wrong, but I don't think DP will allow PHX to be invaded unrpotected the way you would like...it would end up being very costly to the company in terms of emplyee morale and fa training costs.

I hope our MEC's can work together, but I think your Save Our Seniority (SOS) is misguided and does not take into account the fact that we really don't want to steal your seniority. We are very concerned that you do want to steal our Hub Phoenix (HP)

 

[Travelpro72]

We all agreed to AFA and the the C&B's that go with it. Nobody can come right out and answer why HP never tried to change this before. NOTHING in the airline industry is a sure thing. I hear the term career expectations alot but what kind of expectations can you have in an industry that changes as much as it can and has? Like I said before, this campaine to "Change the Bilaws" should have been taken care of long ago. As for the the 2000 senior to HP's #1, we are one company now and when the seniority list is fully merged PHX deserves no special protection that BOS, LGA, PHL, DCA, PIT and CLT deserve. My question again, is that if AFA were to change the C&B's for the old HP f/a's then we can just open the C&B's up for all groups at all airlines and just tear it apart. The companies have done that through BK enough to our contracts already. If you can't count on your AFA C&B's to proctect your @#$ to the smallest degree what is the sense of having a union. We at US-east have done this many times in the past and it has worked out fine. Of ALL the carriers represented by AFA on the HP group of f/a's is making this stink. I asked a while back and will ask again, "If you were to have merged with a more junior group of f/a's would this challenge of DOH be tried today"? I HIGHLY doubt it. I as an 8 year f/a don't want any seniority that I have not accrued but I will be damned if through some "fictional" formula I lose any. We are all one group under AFA and DOH shall prevail. I am so excited about this merger but the whole idea of everyone running to PHX is EXTREME. HP has MANY that are senior to my 8 years so shouldn't I be worried that the PHX f/a's will try and bump me out of PHL leaving me to scramble to another base that has an opening? The HP f/a's challenging the C&B's are really wasting their time and are going to get laughed out of the building. Please don't make us out to be seniority hungry people at US-east for we are not. This is new to all of you and your 1 base company. A fence around the holy land will only last for about 2 years. Between transfers from base to base, retirement, attrition and terminations openings happen all the time. RELAX.

 

[LUV2FLYHIGH]

I know the tounge lashing will begin...

I am a Hp fa, DOH will overcome, and some of you need to get over the FACT
THAT PHOENIX IS NOT the HOLYLAND!!

AS a BORN AND RAISED PHOENIXAN, I don't plan on moving, but if I have to, I will make the best of it.

I think, by the time all is said and done, the INK IS DRY, THE BLOOD IS SHED that there is going to be a wash of were people want to go, and our Senority, Bidding is not going to change that much, and YA'll are freaking out over nothing.

Remember its going to take 18 months or longer before we are ONE AIRLINE, ONE SET OF COLORS..ONE EVERYTHING! You need to take in the factors of people being fired, death, quiting, BUYOUTS, ect,... AND if they (MG) were smart they'll offer the furloughs jobs first before hiring off the street, they did it once thay can do it again.

Yes, what 5 years I have I could lose, yes it could happen, will it, I don't think so, I've stuck it out this far,... furlough, two kids, divorce (maybe) and therapy, hell I got most of the shirts, so if you want to bring it on, you better pack a lunch, because, I do plan an fighting for what is RIGHT and what is FAIR..

I will also so say, TIMES ARE CHANGING, and I agree that the BY-LAWS in a way DO need A MAKEOVER.

If this is going to work you either need to GET ON OR GET OUT!!

 

[Travelpro72]

I really hope that some of the US-west f/a's please spread the right message from those of us at US-east. We are excited about working with you all. We have all been through alot on both sides. The whole C&B thing is not something you do during a merger. I also think that there are a few things that can be changed within the C&B's but now is not the time to change it. It is going to cause ill feelings between both groups for the fact that the f/a's at US-east feel that all at US-west knew about the rules of DOH at AFA. So many on the east side are asking why this is such a big deal now. We have all these base here and it works out. The majority of the US-east f/a's are where they want to be or they commute from their home cities. We are not looking to kick anyone out of PHX rather blend our systems together and unite to create a powerful company. I understand the worry about being kicked out of PHX. As they downsided PIT over the past 3 years I worried. I was displaced from PIT due to cutbacks in june of 2003. As they displaced more there the majority came to PHL pushing me further down the seniority list. People transfered in and out so it all works out. Again, please let the truth be known that we don't want any senioroty we didnt work for and the majority of our senior crowd are leaving. We shall balance out by the time integration occurs. People are going to make themselves sick over this. A few carriers don't adhere to DOH and look at the bs that goes on with them. DOH has worked for YEARS whether thought of as fair or not. Maybe another way can be more fair in some eyes but those are not the rules we are governed by.