The unions are coming, the unions are coming!

[Kev3188]

It's easy to silence a management stooge like Southwind; all you have to do is use logic and fact.

Hopefully the next management plant that pops up on here will remember that and make the debate more interesting/informative. Talking with Southwind was like debating the special-needs kid in school.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

Here's what I don't "get". If the AFA represented flight attendants have less benefits in a contract than the DL flight attendants (per DL), then why is DL fighting so hard to keep them non-union?DL's entire IFS webpage has turned into an anti-union campaign, even after DL remarking to respect their rights to unionize.


amazing........

 

[AA1016]

MY GOD! DELTA MANAGEMENT IS THAT DESPARTE! They are on US AVIATION pretending to be an AA FA. (I hope they sue your a$$ for impersonating a crew member)

They come on here spilling this bile and think people can't see the Delta NON UNION company machine in HYPER DRIVE. You'd LOVE for them to stay weak and NON UNION...

"Flight Attendants Delta has always been very fair and equitable. This was proven during the Western merger and the acquisition of PanAm's European network"

You mean how you CHEATED the others out of senority. NEWSFLASH..IF there is no union for the Delta FA by the time of the merger, and NW comes onto the property..our sen. issue goes to an arbitrator based on our CBA protective clauses, in that arbitration, Delta's past actions are taken into consideration.

So you might say "the chickens could come home to roost" without a Union. NW ain't goin under NOBODY! Bank on it! It took NW (the most vicious management in the industry) to play bankrupt to get what it wanted.

Delta FA...get a Union, protect yourself. NORTHWEST is NOT a one legged Pan Am, nor a tiny Western. There is only so much Delta can do, even if they pretend they can do more.

LOL!!!! A member of DL management, no I am a 20 plus year F/A with AA. As I have a more lucrative job, I have chosen to fly maybe once every 3-4 months. Who was cheated in the seniority integration? Western faired very well and even the PanAm Flight Attendants did quite well. Considering that the other option of a PanAm Flight Attendant would have been....let's see....unemployement, they got a good deal. If I am correct the most junior PanAm F/A with Delta currently has a seniority number in the 6000 range, again those that were not hired by Delta ended up at the bottom of another airlines seniority list or in some other field. Have you read the AFA Policies & Bylaws? They state that even if a carrier is non AFA, they will use date of hire. On the other hand "Fair and Equitable" is just that, Delta has about 14,000 F/A's and N/W 8,000, with a combined total of 22,000 and Delta would make up 65% of that. Now is it fair that about 65% of the NW F/A's are slotted above DL F/A's with 15 years or 80% of NW F/A's slotted above a DL F/A with 10 years...I don't believe so. Based on date of hire NW F/A's stand to gain everything, while the DL F/A's lose. In my book "Fair and Equitable" means just that the burden is shared 50/50. I also find it odd that AFA spent so much time and effort lobbying congress and the senate to have this language enacted into law and now they say it doesn't mean a thing. If this is the case I would surely want to know what they are doing with my dues dollars...oh yeah Pat Friend needs a raise...didn't she make about $106,000 in 2007? We can also ask what did AFA do for NW...while there is good and bad in every contract, DL actually comes out ahead of the NW agreement in many areas. Now what does one get for union dues...it helps get jobs back for F/A's who steal (and get caught at it), who never show up on time or don't show up at all, those who sleep while on duty are abusive to customers and other F/A's....the list can go on and on. There are times when our unions do something for all of us, however, in the past several years it seems their time and resources are being used on all the "Bad Apples" and the common good has been forgotten. Delta has always been a unique animal in this industry, there is something about them that we will never have at AA or other carriers. After 20 plus years knowing everything I do today, if I were a DL F/A I would vote no. Working for AA, we would be toast without a union. DL F/A's save the $43 a month, don't listen to the NW group they want you to vote yes for selfish reasons (I would want the same thing). Remember this, when you started taking your wage cuts it was due to the competitive environment of our industry. Guess what....the carriers you are compared to are represented by AFA. As the landscape has improved you have seen a few improvements, can any union carrier say this? No we cant, even if profits had soared during the life of our contracts, we are locked in. AFA does not care about you, they care only about your dues dollars....with a seniority integration trust your own, the DL Flight Attedants. USAviation....You really think DL management cares about what is said here?

 

[AA1016]

To: North by Northwest

One more thing....DL votes in AFA, everyone gets date of hire, and to make things easier and better for the DL F/A, DL will enforce your CBA on the integrated (date of hire) F/A work group. Not only would they lose seniorty they would also take a wage and benefit cuts...WOOHOO!!!! I am sure the DL F/A's would love it.



You have to be *$#@&*! kidding me!!!!!!

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Neither Western or PanAm Flight Attendants were given date of hire, nor was either group stapled to the bottom. As you may recall the PanAm Flight Attendants did file suit against Delta regarding this and the Flight Attendants lost. Even more recently in the case of American Airlines acquiring TWA and the Flight Attendants being stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, the courts ruled in favor of the AA Flight Attendants. Delta will not staple anyone to the bottom of the list, it would be integrated similar to their past practices, and this is the best case for a Delta Flight Attendant. In my professional opinion Delta's Flight Attendants will get a better deal regarding seniority from Delta more so than the AFA. Keep some of your seniority and vote in a union after a merger. These days we have to look out for ourelves, no one is truly going to take care of us. Let Delta manage the seniority integration to your benefit and then vote in the union later.

Your first statement is not quite true regarding Western. All Western FAs received date of hire except for their top 300 FAs; they were slotted in. Why? That's DL inflite's "seat at the table" they've been talking about again lately. In 1987, that "seat" was compromised of a handful of VERY senior mostly ATL-based fas and obviously it was proven in their outcome. In 1991, another "seat" at the table chose to protect the top 3,000 DL fas and then a slotted system was used. Why the number 3000? I have no idea. I was never asked for my input and I never voted on anyone to represent my concerns at the time. But this is the "seat at the table" that is contained in DL's recent anti-union flyers they are sending out.
In the post above from just one month ago (which was before DL f/a's actually filed for an election), you state "these days we have to look out for ourselves, no one is truly going to take care of us. Let Delta manage the seniority integration to your benefit and then vote in the union later." Now, one month later (per your last post)you say DL is a "different animal" in the industry and f/a's there don't need union representation.. and you urge DL f/a's to vote "NO". What gives? Did the fact that DL AFA activists actually filed for an election change your mind? You're very inconsistent.
And finally, this will answer your question as to why AFA recenlty lobbied for "fair and equitable." I thought attorneys were known for doing a lot of research before they tried their cases, as it were.

http://www.deltaafa.org/default.asp?nc=899&id=89

 

[2BlacknBlue]

....DL actually comes out ahead of the NW agreement in many areas.

Then why not get these "aheads" in a legally enforceable contract?

 

[MMB]

Then why not get these "aheads" in a legally enforceable contract?

Why are you union worshipers so threatened by those who choose not to worship at your alter?
I do not believe there is another religion anywhere as insistent and obnoxious about converting others than you!


Last comment deleted by moderator as tasteless & offensive. A good way to earn time off.

 

[700UW]

Why is it ok for the Executives to have contracts and not the employees?

Ask yourself why the airlines are one of the heaviest unionized industries.

And a union and a CBA level the playing field.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

Why are you union worshipers so threatened by those who choose not to worship at your alter?
I do not believe there is another religion anywhere as insistent and obnoxious about converting others than you!
DELETED BY MODERATOR

It's not union worshiping, it's called doing BUSINESS! Why is it that two of the most brightest and educated work groups at DL (executive management and the pilots) have contracts? Isn't their intelligence and experience valuable marketable tools enough to not need a contract? If AFA represented carriers offer DL flight attendants so little as a contract guide, why is DL fighting so hard to keep them NON-UNION? :blink:

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Why are you union worshipers so threatened by those who choose not to worship at your alter?
I do not believe there is another religion anywhere as insistent and obnoxious about converting others than you!
Deleted by moderator..

You are so insecure in your 'anti-union' position that you would stoop to compare some airline workers to the horrible people that carried out that tragic events of 6+ years ago?? You, obviously, are radical in your own views to be so offensive. You should be ashamed.
If you want to be a man (woman? are you Anne Coulter?) and discuss the reasons pro-union workers are zealous without the name-calling, give it a shot. But I'll give you a hint: Pro-union workers have to set up some type of organization--that's work. Pro-union workers have to get cards signed--that's work. Pro-union workers, after all that, have to get out the vote because the way it's set up people with your view and the apathetic simply do nothing to register a "no". In other words, not voting counts as a "no." Again, the work is put on the pro-union employee. So just maybe, if you can wrap your narrow-minded brain around those facts, you might see why pro-union workers HAVE to be zealous or else, nothing would happen.

 

[Nor'Easta]

Why are you union worshipers so threatened by those who choose not to worship at your alter?
I do not believe there is another religion anywhere as insistent and obnoxious about converting others than you!


Last comment deleted by moderator as tasteless & offensive. A good way to earn time off.

Is that you Tom Cruise?

 

[MMB]

LukeAisleWalker

You say 'without name calling', yet that ability appears to be beyond you (insecure, radical, offensive, apathetic, narrow-minded). Still, yours was better than the others, in that it at least had some substance, so:

I have worked in two union shops and will not work in another.

One was a closed shop. No union card and you do not work there.
In 18 months, the *only* people I saw benefited by the union were those who should have been fired, but were not because of union action.
e.g. One 'worker' would punch in, leave with the outgoing shift, come back at the end of lunch, work a half shift, and punch out to go home. The union protected him.
Another worker returned to his job 10 minutes before the end of a lunch break. The shop steward logged a grievance against him and informed him that if he ever made another action against the union, that his card would be pulled and he would be fired.
Another worker was seen cleaning his own tools. (me) I was informed that there was a union man whose job it was to clean tools. I was told that I could voluntarily sign over my pay for that day to the other man, or I would loose my union card and be fired. I was further advised that if I ever made another action against the union or its members, that my card would be pulled and I would be fired.
I have other examples, but even you should see a pattern by now.

The second was an open shop. Join if you like, but it was not compulsory. I did receive a personal invitation to join. When I filed the vandalism a complaint, I was told that I was *lucky* and that maybe I should sign a card.

My father-in-law had a friend who was shot for crossing a picket line. Coors, Golden, Colorado.

There is no way you can say that unions do not practice terrorism.
Vandalism, arson, assault, murder, ... All are tactics common to union activity. Whether it is a brick, a bullet, a plane, or a burning cross, it is all the same.


Your turn:
Saying that you have to perform work does not answer my question.
Why are you union worshipers so threatened by those who choose not to worship at your alter, that you consider terrorism in the union's name as acceptable?
If you plan on saying you don't, then explain how having a brick flung through your car window isn't terrorism. Or being shot for crossing a picket line.
If you are pimping the union, you are selling ALL of its activities.

 

[Kev3188]

One was a closed shop. No union card and you do not work there.
In 18 months, the *only* people I saw benefited by the union were those who should have been fired, but were not because of union action.

The company, not the union, hires and fires. In this case, the company should have done a better job making it's case. You can't fault the union for doing it's job to represent someone.

e.g. One 'worker' would punch in, leave with the outgoing shift, come back at the end of lunch, work a half shift, and punch out to go home. The union protected him.
Another worker returned to his job 10 minutes before the end of a lunch break. The shop steward logged a grievance against him and informed him that if he ever made another action against the union, that his card would be pulled and he would be fired.
Another worker was seen cleaning his own tools. (me) I was informed that there was a union man whose job it was to clean tools. I was told that I could voluntarily sign over my pay for that day to the other man, or I would loose my union card and be fired. I was further advised that if I ever made another action against the union or its members, that my card would be pulled and I would be fired.

Extreme examples (if even true) by any standard, and not indicative of what's going on today at NW or DL.

I have other examples, but even you should see a pattern by now.

Feel free to post them, 'cause all I see are 2 vary extreme instances. Not a reflection of unionism today, and certainly not a universal pattern.

The second was an open shop. Join if you like, but it was not compulsory. I did receive a personal invitation to join. When I filed the vandalism a complaint, I was told that I was *lucky* and that maybe I should sign a card.

Perhaps you bring out the worst in people?

My father-in-law had a friend who was shot for crossing a picket line. Coors, Golden, Colorado.

Sounds like hearsay to me. Nevertheless, I'm not justifying him getting shot, but he should have known what he was getting into.

There is no way you can say that unions do not practice terrorism.

Watch me: UNIONS DO NOT PRACTICE TERRORISM.

Vandalism, arson, assault, murder, ... All are tactics common to union activity. Whether it is a brick, a bullet, a plane, or a burning cross, it is all the same.

Not since the '70's. Quit watching Sopranos episodes, and educate yourself. By the way, when you compare union men/women to Al-Quaeda (sp?), you instantly lose all credibility.

Lose the hysterics and come back with some compelling arguments.

 

[Come Fly with Me]

LukeAisleWalker

You say 'without name calling', yet that ability appears to be beyond you (insecure, radical, offensive, apathetic, narrow-minded). Still, yours was better than the others, in that it at least had some substance, so:

I have worked in two union shops and will not work in another.

One was a closed shop. No union card and you do not work there.
In 18 months, the *only* people I saw benefited by the union were those who should have been fired, but were not because of union action.
e.g. One 'worker' would punch in, leave with the outgoing shift, come back at the end of lunch, work a half shift, and punch out to go home. The union protected him.
Another worker returned to his job 10 minutes before the end of a lunch break. The shop steward logged a grievance against him and informed him that if he ever made another action against the union, that his card would be pulled and he would be fired.
Another worker was seen cleaning his own tools. (me) I was informed that there was a union man whose job it was to clean tools. I was told that I could voluntarily sign over my pay for that day to the other man, or I would loose my union card and be fired. I was further advised that if I ever made another action against the union or its members, that my card would be pulled and I would be fired.
I have other examples, but even you should see a pattern by now.

The second was an open shop. Join if you like, but it was not compulsory. I did receive a personal invitation to join. When I filed the vandalism a complaint, I was told that I was *lucky* and that maybe I should sign a card.

My father-in-law had a friend who was shot for crossing a picket line. Coors, Golden, Colorado.

There is no way you can say that unions do not practice terrorism.
Vandalism, arson, assault, murder, ... All are tactics common to union activity. Whether it is a brick, a bullet, a plane, or a burning cross, it is all the same.


Your turn:
Saying that you have to perform work does not answer my question.
Why are you union worshipers so threatened by those who choose not to worship at your alter, that you consider terrorism in the union's name as acceptable?
If you plan on saying you don't, then explain how having a brick flung through your car window isn't terrorism. Or being shot for crossing a picket line.
If you are pimping the union, you are selling ALL of its activities.

MMB I respect your union rhetoric but I work at Delta and I see what goes on. I work in LAX and the time clock issue still goes on at work. You see we don't have a time clock at Delta. People leave an hour early even without a union. I suggest you make a better case. In fact right now Delta ramp is organizing. The supervisors use the time clock issue to turn us against the union. They say we get a union on property you'll get a time clock. What does that tell you NO MORE LEAVING EARLY. Get the picture.

 

[Airlinelifer]

MMB I respect your union rhetoric but I work at Delta and I see what goes on. I work in LAX and the time clock issue still goes on at work. You see we don't have a time clock at Delta. People leave an hour early even without a union. I suggest you make a better case. In fact right now Delta ramp is organizing. The supervisors use the time clock issue to turn us against the union. They say we get a union on property you'll get a time clock. What does that tell you NO MORE LEAVING EARLY. Get the picture.

MMB has no clue.....we went from old-style time clocks, with the the slot with the card and time stamp, then we went to the company ID swipe, now we have the new ID "scan" with added fingerprint "biometrics". If MMB thinks we can come and go at our convencience, tell that to the employees who thought that they could get away with time clock fraud and are now looking for another job.