The UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT

[tom barry]

GOD forbid I, or my better half was diagnosed with Cancer,..............NOBODY, I repeat.........NOBODY is gonna' tell me that I CAN'T go to the best cancer hospital in the World.......(Sloan-Kettering in NYC), .......................as opposed to being told I have to go to "Pleasantville General" ONLY.

Comprende ???

 

[SparrowHawk]

GOD forbid I, or my better half was diagnosed with Cancer,..............NOBODY, I repeat.........NOBODY is gonna' tell me that I CAN'T go to the best cancer hospital in the World.......(Sloan-Kettering in NYC), .......................as opposed to being told I have to go to "Pleasantville General" ONLY.

Comprende ???

Keep that in mind as Obama Care will DENY your request. Government run medicine will encourage mediocrity.

 

[777 fixer]

A FREE Market drives prices down. Just like it did with airfares. Inflation adjusted we pay less now to fly then we did 20 years ago. Deregulation worked unless you were an airline employee.

Are you kidding, your using the airline business as an example?! That has got to be the most idiotic example I can think of. The airline business is a mess from the employee standpoint and the customer standpoint.

 

[Ms Tree]

Keep that in mind as Obama Care will DENY your request. Government run medicine will encourage mediocrity.

And insurance companies do not deny legitimate medical claims? Are people dying left and right in Canada and Europe because of denied claims?

 

[777 fixer]

A FREE Market drives prices down. Just like it did with airfares. Inflation adjusted we pay less now to fly then we did 20 years ago. Deregulation worked unless you were an airline employee.

Right now pre Obama Care the Government has in dollar terms about 50% of expenditures, which is you and me funding someone else's Healthcare.

Let's take a basic Doctors visit. The example I made up is much more favorable to the Government role then it actually is, but I want to be fair in demonstrating how getting Government OUT will lower costs. So let's assume for discussion the following to be true.

Doctor's Office Charge = $50.00
Doctor's Office Actual cost to provide = $25.00
Doctor's Office Reimbursement for MediCare/Caid = $15.00
Doctor's Office Reimbursement from private employer paid plans = $35.00

The Doctor is allowed a profit as is any enterprise and under the example the ONLY person paying the $50.00 published rate is the person without insurance of any kind. The Dr has to either find enough uninsured patients who actually pay to offset the below cost reimbursement from the Government or only accept a limited number of MediCare/Caid patients.

Eliminate the cost of Government paperwork and the Dr's cost go down to say $23.00 per visit. Most private companies are doing things electronically now which also lowers cost to the Dr. Then you say "But what about those on the government programs". If you cut the programs to near zero or even raise eligibility you effectively remove cost shifting. Once you have the Government out or it's 50% market share into the teens or single digits then the price settles in to around (IMO) $30.00per visit. The Dr gets his profit, insurance companies get lower cost, you get lower premiums and more can afford insurance and MSA's. NO, it's not perfect. It is however preferable to a government run bureaucracy. Seriously do you want the same people who muck up the DMV having your life in their hands?

A $23 dollar reduction per visit? That makes all the difference in the world if you are having major surgery for say something like cancer followed by chemo. 🙄

Once again you fauiled to address the issue at hand. How many people have the sort of income where they can put enough money away for a major medical event. Having had several family members go though cancer surgery/treatment even if you cut the costs in half they still would not would have been able to put enough money into an MSA to pay for it all. MSA are good for the small things and that's about it.

 

[SparrowHawk]

A $23 dollar reduction per visit? That makes all the difference in the world if you are having major surgery for say something like cancer followed by chemo. 🙄

Once again you fauiled to address the issue at hand. How many people have the sort of income where they can put enough money away for a major medical event. Having had several family members go though cancer surgery/treatment even if you cut the costs in half they still would not would have been able to put enough money into an MSA to pay for it all. MSA are good for the small things and that's about it.

The visit was merely an example of how GOV. Increases prices in a free market. Education is the same way. Take a look a college tuition costs since the US Dept. of Education was formed and Student loans became widely available. When Government puts money into a market the market finds a way to spend it. In education the end result is we now have a boatload of College Grads with a Bachelors Degree with precious few job opportunities and student loan debt that is often north of $100k. If they go to Medical or Law School the debt is staggering. Unlike AIG, GM etc these student can't get a bailout or even file bankruptcy as the Student Loan is forever,

MSA's which you seem to think would be the only avenue open shows you're just preaching out of the Obama playbook. Under ObamaCare the individual mandate is a one size fits all approach. You either buy their package or pay the penalty. In a FREE market someone who is relatively young and healthy could buy a High deductible, Major Medical type plan with a lower affordable cost and make up the balance through an MSA. Conversely someone a little older and more established could opt for a much more expensive plan with lower deductibles and greater coverage.

The public has been against this since the Empty Suit tried to ram if down our throats and no matter what the SCOTUS says this abortion will fail eventually, Individual Americans recognize that they have more power as consumers than they do as voters.

Seventy-six percent think they should have the right to choose between expensive insurance plans with low deductibles and low-cost plans with higher deductibles. A similar majority believes everyone should be allowed to choose between expensive plans that cover just about every imaginable medical procedure and lower-cost plans that cover a smaller number of procedures. All such choices would be banned under the current health care law. Further, recent estimates suggest that the law would cause 11 million people to lose their employer-provided insurance and be forced onto a government-backed insurance plan. That's a problem because 77 percent of those who now have insurance rate their current coverage as good or excellent. Only 3 percent rate their coverage as poor. For most of the 11 million forced to change their insurance coverage then, it will be received as bad news and create a pool of vocally unhappy voters.

Credit:Scott Rasmussen of the Rassmussen Group provided the polling numbers. Not Gallup but widely respected.

 

[tech2101]

Seventy-six percent think they should have the right to choose between expensive insurance plans with low deductibles and low-cost plans with higher deductibles. A similar majority believes everyone should be allowed to choose between expensive plans that cover just about...

And a large group who cannot afford any plan will just do what they do now...go to an emergency room when they get so sick they can't stand it any longer and you and I will pay.

I am sure in the Ronulan empire your plan would be just fabulous.

There, they would have the freedom to die due to market forces that you preach. Oh wait, you said that some great charity hospital would emerge and take care of all these people.

Of course we can hope that the SCOTUS overturns what has been accomplished thus far and let congress have a "do-over". I am quite sure they will work hard for us to get something done soon. 🙄

Of course we can just stay the course. What we have now works great!

 

[delldude]

And a large group who cannot afford any plan will just do what they do now...go to an emergency room when they get so sick they can't stand it any longer and you and I will pay.

I am sure in the Ronulan empire your plan would be just fabulous.

There, they would have the freedom to die due to market forces that you preach. Oh wait, you said that some great charity hospital would emerge and take care of all these people.

Of course we can hope that the SCOTUS overturns what has been accomplished thus far and let congress have a "do-over". I am quite sure they will work hard for us to get something done soon. 🙄

Of course we can just stay the course. What we have now works great!

Wake up.....single payor and end of independent ins co.s is the game.

 

[SparrowHawk]

And a large group who cannot afford any plan will just do what they do now...go to an emergency room when they get so sick they can't stand it any longer and you and I will pay.

I am sure in the Ronulan empire your plan would be just fabulous.

There, they would have the freedom to die due to market forces that you preach. Oh wait, you said that some great charity hospital would emerge and take care of all these people.

Of course we can hope that the SCOTUS overturns what has been accomplished thus far and let congress have a "do-over". I am quite sure they will work hard for us to get something done soon. 🙄

Of course we can just stay the course. What we have now works great!

I owe my life to a Charity Hospital, so don't give me this bull feces about them springing up when they're already here. Deborah Heart & Lung in Browns Mills, NJ accepts insurance and Medicare/Caid like any other Hospital. Difference is that if their charges exceed your insurance reimbursement then you don't pay. You do however end up on their mailing list seeking donations which they receive from me monthly. Two additional items should be noted. Deborah has no Emergency Room to bankrupt it. They also are one of the top transplant hospitals in the nation. Charity Hospitals have been around since before the nation was founded.

GOVERNMENT rules and regulations force people to the most expensive doctor visit there is, The ER. What's wrong with an ER doctor or nurse practitioner looking at a patient and saying "You are not an emergency, please make an appointment with your Doctor?" Remember 95% of whatever illness you contract is self limiting, meaning it goes away by itself.

Then we have the Crony Capitalists getting into the Hospital business. Once again Government with it's massive pool of our money created a stable funding base that allowed for profit hospitals to flourish. The for profit Hospitals can then donate to political campaigns to further stack the deck against the smaller, local charity/community hospital. Yet another example of the Government picking economic winners and losers.

Here is the bottom line for me. Anytime you cede control to the government for a service like Health Care or Retirement you are now dependent upon said government whether you want to be or not. That means you have to vote to maintain the Status Quo. With that being the case you are no longer truly free. In fact you are now a slave to a government that probably does NOT have your best interests at heart.

 

[tech2101]

Ok, I was wrong. All the indigents can go to your heart and lung hospital in New Jersey.

They are out of luck though if they burst an appendix since they have no emergency room. F'em...let them eat cake.

At least you can feel good that you that you are donating to your little hospital.

If they don't live in New Jersey, they will just use the Internet and their network to find out the best place to go when they are deathly ill. After all, they have saved up for this little bump in the road.

They can hop in a cab or in their vehicle and drive from bumfuk west Texas to the local charity hospital and get all their ills cured.

Free market at its best! They should have put some money in that little fund to cover for when they get sick and can't get to work.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Ok, I was wrong. All the indigents can go to your heart and lung hospital in New Jersey.

If they don't live in New Jersey, they will just use the Internet and their network to find out the best place to go when they are deathly ill.

They can hop in a cab or in their vehicle and drive from bumfuk west Texas to the local charity hospital and get all their ills cured.

And when they lose their job because they got sick and didn't show up for work?

Free market at its best! They should have put some money in that little fund to cover for when they get sick and can't get to work.

Don't be a horse's ass Tech. One of the biggest Charity hospitals in the country is in New Orleans. WHY? Because that's where the need is. Don't need a charity hospital in the Hamptons.

The price of freedom is risk! Risk that you may be injured on the job, lose your job because of illness, etc etc. Sometimes we are at the mercy of our brethren. Thankfully here in the US the brethren are very generous.

We are creating a society of sloth with the notion that government can cure all of our ills when the evidence to the contrary smacks us square in the face daily. If it were true then the USSR would be the dominant political and economic system. IIRC the USSR is no longer in existence so that worked out well didn't it? They also IIRC had government run Health Care and yet wealthy Russians came here! Wonder why that was? Same reason Brits and Canadians come today I'm guessing.

When you allow a Government to take over large portions of your individual decision making you become a slave to that government. History has shown this time and again yet the Liberal/Progressive thinks this time will be different further proving that Einstein's definition of insanity is alive and well with progressives.

 

[777 fixer]

I am sure in the Ronulan empire your plan would be just fabulous.

Quiet you! Ron Paul is not about asking questions. If you don't like Ron Paul you obviously don't like liberty or freedom. 😉

 

[777 fixer]

MSA's which you seem to think would be the only avenue open shows you're just preaching out of the Obama playbook. Under ObamaCare the individual mandate is a one size fits all approach. You either buy their package or pay the penalty. In a FREE market someone who is relatively young and healthy could buy a High deductible, Major Medical type plan with a lower affordable cost and make up the balance through an MSA. Conversely someone a little older and more established could opt for a much more expensive plan with lower deductibles and greater coverage.

You did not metnion insurance before. And how much of the cost would MSA's cover? Say you have cancer surgery and the resulting treatments along with trips to the oncologist cost around $100K. How much would the MSA cover?

 

[SparrowHawk]

You did not metnion insurance before. And how much of the cost would MSA's cover? Say you have cancer surgery and the resulting treatments along with trips to the oncologist cost around $100K. How much would the MSA cover?

As much as the person was able to save. even if the MSA only covered say $20K that's still less than the bill without an MSA. Plus if the tax code was done right the patient would be able to deduct the expense as a capital loss. Which means using the 10 year net loss carry forward provision one could knock down the bill substantially and into an affordable range. If you make about $65K and are single your tax obligation is about $12K. If the person is funding a MSA and is able to return to work over the next ten years, The net loss provision would reduce your tax obligation by about $3,000 and add in your $4,000 MSA contribution you've covered all but around $10,000.

Go one step more and if you have equity and credit and take a second mortgage if that works better for your personal situation.

Next you'll come back with "What about those who are poor" For that see the Charity Hospital example. Bottom line is more government involvement means higher cost. This is true throughout history no matter which country you check

 

[southwind]

And insurance companies do not deny legitimate medical claims? Are people dying left and right in Canada and Europe because of denied claims?

No.................most are coming to the US for better care and to avoid long waiting lines !

Err................."Canadian official has heart surgery -- in the U.S."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkup/2010/02/canadian_premier_has_heart_sur.html

And another point ! Some of my co-workers are practicing Obamanites and believe he can do no wrong. We have decent insurance coverage right now and these fellow co-workers believe they won't be exposed to Obama-CareTM because our company will continue to provide coverage simply because Obama will impose a fine on them!
I try to explain to said Obamanites that if a company is paying $5000.00 per year to cover you vs. paying a $2000.00 fine to Obama for not covering you and forcing you to stand in line with the rest of Obama-CareTM patients, which way do you think the company will lean. That's when the blank stares begin !