Things Are About To Get Ugly

[The Ronin]

The two sides have been locked in formal negotiations for the last month. The proposed pay cuts, which would freeze any scheduled raises through 2008, would bring US Airways pilots more in line with their counterparts at America West Airlines, a Phoenix-based rival being used by the company as a model in these negotiations. Top pilots at US Airways currently can make around $200,000 a year in base pay, meaning that a 12.5 percent pay cut would bring that top salary down to $175,000. The lowest-paid mainline pilots would see their salary drop as low as $70,000, according to Stephan.

"It is a significant chunk of money," Stephan said.

The other piece of the pilots' proposal deals with their productivity. The pilots' negotiating committee is offering to increase the total number of hours any pilot can work per month from 85 to 90 hours -- closer to America West's cap of 92 hours. The company wants pilots to fly more per month, making the entire operation more productive. But increasing the cap still does not solve the real issue, which is time in the cockpit. US Airways' pilots average 52 to 55 hours per month in the cockpit, and the rest of their time is split among training sessions, vacation and "deadheading" -- the term used to describe the transfer of a pilot between airports to position him or her for a new flight. America West pilots average 56 or 57 hours in the cockpit and JetBlue Airways, another carrier being used as a model by US Airways, has its pilots flying an average of 68 hours per month

 

[The Ronin]

Where do our pilots fit in this...contract wise????

And is it just me or do theses guys really screw their own, jesus, one guy at $175k and another at $75k. That's quite a spread, and these guys are almost out of business???

 

[The Ronin]

United Airlines unions oppose further concessions

The three largest unions at United Airlines all said late Monday that the third and final rejection of federal loan guarantees for the airline did not mean UAL Corp. had to go back to the well for further employee concessions.

Unions representing pilots, flight attendants and the largest chunk of the ground work force all said United could find a way to emerge from Chapter 11 without seeking further wage cuts or gutting pension plans.

"We fully expect that such solutions will be found without the company again turning to employees," said Mark Bathurst, chairman of the United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association. "Employees have already provided significant financial relief for this airline."

ALPA reacted quickly after the Air Transportation Stabilization Board turned down United's scaled-back request for $1.1 billion in loan guarantees. So did the union representing the other United employees in the sky.

"I want to assure you that all of our legal and financial advisors are confident that other sources of financing are available and, while this will delay our airline's bankruptcy exit, United has a number of options which will be fully explored," said Greg Davidowitch, president of the United chapter of the Association of Flight Attendants, said in a Net-posted letter to members.

A feistier response came from the union representing baggage handlers, food service workers, check-in counter agents and guards.

"Airline workers have more to fear from anti-worker legislators and their allies than they do from any terrorist or international threat," said Robert Roach, Jr., vice president of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers. "The campaign by a gaggle of analysts and politicians to deny United any financial aid is clearly aimed at reducing labor costs industry-wide by forcing United to set new, lower standards for employee compensation." He called aid opponents "free market cannibals."

"The intent of the ATSB decision is to trigger yet another round of employee sacrifices," said IAM District 141 President Randy Canale, who represents most United ground workers other than mechanics. The mechanics switched last year to another union, which did not issue a statement Monday.

The first round of mainland news reports on the ATSB rejection included numerous predictions by airline industry analysts that the move would indeed drive United back to employees, probably seeking further cost cuts in pension plans. UAL itself did not say so Monday.

 

[The Ronin]

Why don’t I get it? I mean it’s not like I want to give anything away and certainly I don’t have any confidence in our management, but here we go again with this BS rhetoric. How about a press release saying “We all know United can be a viable, competitive airline and we (the unions) are committed to that end†period. All you do with this “other†statement is (1) make yourself look stupid, you WILL in the end roll over if necessary (2) give more fuel to these a**holes Ray Neidl and Boyd and every other parasite that “knows†so much about everything in aviation. What is needed more than anything is a “united†front from all sides to show our customers, competition, and possible lenders that we are on the same page and have momentum going in a positive direction. Storybook perhaps, but really this is what needs to be put in the public perspective, not the nonsensical crap “we’re not givingâ€. You won’t find any empathy with that, and we could use a little right now, wouldn’t you say?

 

[737nCH11]

Ronin,

For once we agree on something. 😛

 

[Fly]

When you read what Ronin writes (and ignore the sarcasm) he's usually 100% on target.

 

[C54Capt]

Ronin,

You are pretty much on target.

However, when do we finally say no, stop, can't go any lower. Do we sacrafice our peers in the industry by taking the lowest wages in the industry. We go from berating the LCCs to... ourselves becoming "ultra LCCs". Where does it stop on the way to the bottom. Is UAL going to lead the way? Appearantly, YES.

 

[TDR1502C]

Ronin,

You are pretty much on target.

However, when do we finally say no, stop, can't go any lower. Do we sacrafice our peers in the industry by taking the lowest wages in the industry. We go from berating the LCCs to... ourselves becoming "ultra LCCs". Where does it stop on the way to the bottom. Is UAL going to lead the way? Appearantly, YES.

It's pretty hard to put the concession genie back in the bottle after the first round in the industry. It's like crack for airline executives.

I guess the first airline to import some coolies wins the race.

 

[Segue]

Your are living in a capitalist democracy....with it comes the good AND the bad.

"This process of Creative Destruction is the essential fact about capitalism. It is what capitalism consists in and what every capitalist concern has got to live in. . . .

Every piece of business strategy acquires its true significance only against the background of that process and within the situation created by it. It must be seen in its role in the perennial gale of creative destruction; it cannot be understood irrespective of it or, in fact, on the hypothesis that there is a perennial lull. . . ."


From Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy
Joseph A. Schumpeter

 

[TDR1502C]

Your are living in a capitalist democracy....with it comes the good AND the bad.

"This process of Creative Destruction is the essential fact about capitalism. It is what capitalism consists in and what every capitalist concern has got to live in. . . .

Every piece of business strategy acquires its true significance only against the background of that process and within the situation created by it. It must be seen in its role in the perennial gale of creative destruction; it cannot be understood irrespective of it or, in fact, on the hypothesis that there is a perennial lull. . . ."


From Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy
Joseph A. Schumpeter

Sure Segue. Like someone else around here said, if the workers get screwed it's capitalism, and if the rich get screwed it's communism.

Explain about how that "good" got spread around while us airline folks were locked into concessionary contracts. "Bad" seems to have a lot of cheerleaders for sharing the effect. Any lights come on about the fertilizer for the famous "choke the goose" quote?

 

[boeing787]

Dubinsky...greedy greedy greedy. Well weren't we all back in 2000? Seems like the tide has turned. I'd like to see UAL be a LCC destroy the rest of em and then we'd fight like hell (and win) and get what we have lost back. Pipe dream...maybe...possibility...yes.

 

[The Drunken Duck]

Explain about how that "good" got spread around while us airline folks were locked into concessionary contracts. "Bad" seems to have a lot of cheerleaders for sharing the effect.

I love the term "concessionary contract". Every contract is a "concessionary contract". They always have been, they always will be. To pretend that a win-win contract is possible is foolhardy. Unless the economy expands at 4%+ real GDP to infinity, investors and employees will always have to make concessions. The uncertainity of the business cycle forces these concessions.

As for cheerleading to share the bad effect, it does appear the shareholders have "shared" in this event. The difference being that for the most part, their risk is diversified. A UAL employee's risk is not.

 

[firstamendment]

For months many of us who have gone thru this have triend to warn you guys that things could get ugly. We were ridiculed as bitter US employees jealous because somehow UAL was doing it right. Well, here it stands. I knew this would happen. Chapter 11 seemed too easy with you guys. I was amazed and yes, jealous. It is going to be hard. Look at US. I am sorry you guys are having to live now with much of the uncertainties that I sense here on this thread. I don't wish that on anyone. We are still going thru it and it sucks.

Hang in there, UAL.

 

[Dizel8]

" I'd like to see UAL be a LCC destroy the rest of em."

Hmmm!

 

[Fly]

Thanks First. I still think things will be okay. (sort of how AA watched United's mistakes and then avoided them) Now United has seen US Airways mistakes, and we will avoid those too. Notice, United plans to grow instead of shrink......"NoOne Shrinks to Profitability" is what everyone says...maybe United management listened. Oh yes, and of course we can all kiss our pensions Buh Bye 🙁