This Pilot Has It Right! EOM!!

novaqt

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
488
0
>First, let me preface this by admitting that I''m an Airbus F/O at United. These are the realities of our situation:
>
>Pilots: First....Making a lot of money when the economy is up and your business model works is great. The reality is that our work rules are a joke. Imagine if any of us on this message board opened up a carwash and allowed our employees to work at the same productivity levely that we as UAL pilots do. Chapter 11.
>
>Second....You can argue your value only when you''re in a buyers market. The reality is that there are a lot of 25-27 year old pilots out there that can do my job and are willing to do it for 1/4 the cost. Do they have my qualifications? NO! Does the flying public care? NO!! John B. Public doesn''t discern whether or not his guy in the polyester suit flew from aircraft carriers or in Cessna 172''s. The only issue in this economy is ticket price. PERIOD!
>
>Third....I have yet to meet a group of employees possessing a greater sense of entitlement when it comes to the work place. Read up on Adam Smith referencing market forces. We cannot transfer our skills to equitable wages elsewhere in the economy. The market and, therefore, our current situation will ultimately determine our income or our demise.
>
>IAM: First....You got screwed.
>
>Second...It doesn''t matter. Live by the sword or die by it but I would always choose to live now and fight another day. In my relatively short tenure at United I''ve run into a host of former Eastern Mechs driving limo''s or working in hotels. All of them service industry and all of them making far less that you will even given the most sever wage concessions.
>
>Finally: UNIONS! Blame Bush and the Republicans all you want but here are the facts!
>
>FACT 1: The ESOP was a failure. It was a failure in practice and theory. How can you have a member on the board who has a fiduciary responsibility to ALL shareholders but is still a member of our Union(s).
>
>FACT 2: We paid too much for the stock. If you can''t see this go to mathmadeeasy.com.
>
>FACT 3: ALPA and the IAM put Goodwin in charge because we thought he could be groomed. OOPS
>
>FACT 4: The pilot slowdown was the start of UAL loosing money.
>
>FACT 5: Contract 2000 was phase 2 of UAL loosing money. Rick even said we couldn''t afford it. The Golden Goose had suffered a loss of oxygen a bit too long.
>
>FACT 6: For the IAM. J Peterpaul; good, bad or indifferent was your guy and he voted for the USAir merger. I''ll blame my union for it''s transgressions. Blame yours for its own.
>
>FACT 7: Executives and lawyers don''t lose money. Ever. So if you think you''re screwing anyone other than the employees of this company by advocating its demise you''re either blinded by anger or just foolish. Name one poor former airline CEO. Just one will do.
>
>FACT 8: Tilton is our last hope. I give UAL a less that 50% chance of going chapter 7 and it has nothing to do with the economy or Iraq or our competitors. I can''t blame Blue Skies or Ferris or Wolf or ESOP or Goodwin or Osama or anyone else right now. We have to live to fight another day.
>
>
>I''d rather be furloughed for 5 years than see this company go down. There are too many good people who have worked hard trying to make a go under lousy leadership to let that happen.
>
>Semper Fi,
>
>Lerch
>
>
 

gatemech

Senior
Aug 24, 2002
356
5
www.usaviation.com
novaqt,

You hit the nail on the head. You just about said it all.

I believe UAL will go CH 7. I'll ride it out and move on. If 20 mil is still the losing number then all the concessions or lay-offs they want will not save the company.
 

The Ronin

Senior
Sep 17, 2002
497
0
Finally an honest evaluation of the entire situation. The game is over, but maybe some of us will find ourselves together somewhere else, pilots, mechanics, f/a's....and we hopefully the lessons we have learned here will not repeat themselves. I sure have met some of the best in the business, and it was an honor to have worn the same colors as those who have taught me so much. Semper Fi...
 
Aug 20, 2002
1,423
90
Valhalla
www.usaviation.com
Novaqt -- superb post, thanks for your candid views.

All of the issues you mentioned are internally-focused. "Family matters" that can be resolved without your paying guests' notice.

How do you propose to lure more revenue pax who would be willing to pay a fair value for your product?

Revenue, revenue revenue.
 

767jetz

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
3,286
2,779
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 12:59:02 PM UnitedChicago wrote:

Hello everyone.

I know the situation is dire...but it's not over yet. Collectively you all can contribute to righting the ship.

I'm tired of all the "it's already over" comments.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Right on, brother!

UNITED WILL STAND
 

L1011Ret

Veteran
Oct 31, 2002
1,326
0
Novaqt is sending reality based factual messages. It is unfortunate that many cannot "hear" the message and remain in denial with alternative explanations and rationalizations. Those who cannot hear or see the situation for what it is and chose to see it through their own distorted lenses are liable to suffer the most. Unfortunately they may drag others along with them.
 

The Ronin

Senior
Sep 17, 2002
497
0
I think this is the only post worth anything on this entire board. Any company that has over 15 billion in revenue and is still 3.2 billion in the "hole" is beyond any labor help. I would rather forfeit 16yrs at United and restore some type of health to the aviation industry than watch this "cancer" to continue. This company was very sick PRIOR to ESOP, and all that has been accomplished is the furthering of greed and self interests, from top to bottom. Yes there are some phenomenal people here, but they are only the host to a parasitic drain that is finally killing them and this company.
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 12:23:25 PM The Ronin wrote:

Finally an honest evaluation of the entire situation. The game is over, but maybe some of us will find ourselves together somewhere else, pilots, mechanics, f/a's....and we hopefully the lessons we have learned here will not repeat themselves. I sure have met some of the best in the business, and it was an honor to have worn the same colors as those who have taught me so much. Semper Fi...
----------------
[/blockquote]
K, JarHead!! OohRahhh!!!
 

oldpilot

Newbie
Aug 22, 2002
14
0
Novagt, excellent post. You should put it on the ALPA board but you would get flamed something awful. The only thing I think you got wrong was why ALPA and the IAM picked Goodwin. They thought he would be a push over and they were right. Took him for everything the company was worth.
I voted yes!
 

ualdriver

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
509
0
Well, I'm another Airbus F/O at United, and I think most of that top post is a bunch of apologetic tripe. All sides of our little United family are to blame for where we are today, and to be an apologist for the pilots and our union is to me ridiculous.


******Pilots: First....Making a lot of money when the economy is up and your business model works is great. The reality is that our work rules are a joke. Imagine if any of us on this message board opened up a carwash and allowed our employees to work at the same productivity levely that we as UAL pilots do. Chapter 11.********

Pilots will always make "a lot of money" (your words) compared to the other professions on any airline's property, whether the economy is up or not. I realize I'm not entitled to my job or my salary, and I don't feel badly about collecting my paycheck. Our profession makes what it makes for the many reasons we've discussed ad nausium on this board. And our work rules are not a "joke." They are there to protect us against fatigue and abuse and provide for a safe operation. The guy at your fictional "carwash" doesn't get people hurt or multi-million dollar compay captial damaged when they may a mistake at work because he had a 16 hour duty day towelling off the chrome rims on some guy's Escalade.

That having been said, drastic changes in both pay and work rules need to be made in order for us to emerge from bankruptcy as a viable competitor. Just don't insult my profession by telling me that because work rules put in place by the FAA and my Union don't give me the productivity of a car wash worker, that somehow I'm culpable for what's going on right now.


*******Second....You can argue your value only when you're in a buyers market. The reality is that there are a lot of 25-27 year old pilots out there that can do my job and are willing to do it for 1/4 the cost. Do they have my qualifications? NO! Does the flying public care? NO!! John B. Public doesn't discern whether or not his guy in the polyester suit flew from aircraft carriers or in Cessna 172's. The only issue in this economy is ticket price. PERIOD!************

So what's your point? I should feel sorry for collecting my paycheck because there are guys out there who will do my job more cheaply than me? I have a relative who has been a civil engineer since he graduated from college when he was 21 or 22. His 30+ years of experience at his firm allow him to finally command a pretty good salary. It would be difficult, but I guess not impossible, for him to replace that salary if he lost his job at his curent firm. There are PLENTY of engineers that are young, inexperienced, and fresh out of college that for all practical intents and purposes, could do the job he has now and would be willing to do it for 1/4 for the amount he makes. Should my relative feel sorry for the high salary he collects for doing his job because someone will do it more cheaply? If his firms' management makes fundamental business errors that cause his firm to fail despite the fact that he does his engineering job well, should he feel sorry for collecting his larger paycheck because a young, less inexperienced engineer could do his job more cheaply? Stop apologizing for the pilot group.


********Third....I have yet to meet a group of employees possessing a greater sense of entitlement when it comes to the work place. Read up on Adam Smith referencing market forces. We cannot transfer our skills to equitable wages elsewhere in the economy. The market and, therefore, our current situation will ultimately determine our income or our demise.***********

This is a completely arrogant statement. Let me tell you what I see in the pilot group. I have never met a group of employees who are more willing than the pilot group to YET AGAIN step up to the plate, take MORE than their fair share of the pay cuts YET AGAIN, negotiate new contracts YET AGAIN, and do what it takes to help turn this company around YET AGAIN. I, like many of the employees I HAVE MET, feel fortunate to be where we are today and realize it could be gone tomorrow and therefore are willing to lead the way out of bankruptcy.

And stop telling me that I can't transfer my skills to equitable wages elsewhere in the country. I can't because there are few jobs similar to mine that have the responsiblity, technical skills, and experience levels that my job currently requires. If United fails, we'll all do what we have to do- we'll get re-employed at one of the surviving airlines in a couple of years, we'll earn new educational degrees, etc., etc. Please don't expect me to be "scared" that I'll starve to death and the world will stop spinning if I lose my job flying airplanes at United.


*******IAM: First....You got screwed.*************

Yeah, they really got screwed with that industry leading contract with 100% back pay at 7% interest secured by company assets. Remember, the IAM is a powerful union that CHOSE to take 2 years to negotiate their contract for a variety of reasons.



************Finally: UNIONS! Blame Bush and the Republicans all you want but here are the facts!

>FACT 1: The ESOP was a failure. It was a failure in practice and theory. How can you have a member on the board who has a fiduciary responsibility to ALL shareholders but is still a member of our Union(s).********

The conflict of interest is there certainly. I guess the unions at the time could have turned down the ESOP and Wolf could have gone through with his threat to break up the airline. Who knows which situation would have been worse?


********>FACT 2: We paid too much for the stock. If you can't see this go to mathmadeeasy.com.*********

Hindsight is 20/20. Anyone who has invested any money in the stock market over the past couple of years probably paid too much for their stock. What's your point? That we should have been able to predict the future and see that UAL's stock would be hovering around a buck on Jan 1, 2003?


*******FACT 3: ALPA and the IAM put Goodwin in charge because we thought he could be "groomed". OOPS *********

Goodwin put in a lifetime here at UAL, working his way up to VP of whatever it was, and there was no reason why he couldn't have been successful as his tenure as CEO. Unfortunately, his own ineptitude and failure to learn from the lessons of the past served to hasten his demise. For all practical intents and purposes, he SHOULD have been a good CEO.


*******>FACT 4: The pilot slowdown was the start of UAL loosing money.
> **********

UAL would have been losing money Summer of 2000 or not. Even Carty (American's CEO) made the statement that he had never seen business travel fall off so quickly in so short a time when the INDUSTRY was floundering in 2001-2002. To blame any group for that is absolue nonsense.


*******FACT 5: Contract 2000 was phase 2 of UAL loosing money. Rick even said we couldn't afford it. The "Golden Goose" had suffered a loss of oxygen a bit too long.********

You read USA Today, The Washington Post, The NY Times, and the Chicago Tribune too much. Please post the numbers that show that the pay increase given to ALPA due to Contract 2000 was the difference between a profitable UAL and a bankrupt UAL. I have put up many, many posts that show mathmatically that the pilots could be working for free and we'd still be losing bucketfuls of money.

*****FACT 6: For the IAM. J Peterpaul; good, bad or indifferent was your guy and he voted for the USAir merger. I'll blame my union for it's transgressions. Blame yours for its own.*********

Actually, even what I read and heard from Dubinski at the time the US Air merger was going down, he thought it was a good "business decision" as well. So did the Board of Directors, for what's that worth. Unfortunately, Goodwin totally screwed himself in the execution of the deal (i.e. he angered the unions, the government wouldn't go along, etc., etc.) But I guess in hindsight we could argue that it probaby wouldn't have been a successful integration anyway.
>


********>FACT 8: Tilton is our last hope. I give UAL a less that 50% chance of going chapter 7 and it has nothing to do with the economy or Iraq or our competitors. I can't blame Blue Skies or Ferris or Wolf or ESOP or Goodwin or Osama or anyone else right now. We have to live to fight another day.
> ********

We're all our last hope. If any of the unions do anything stupid, we'll be in Chapter 7. If we wreck an airplane, god forbid, we could be in Chapter 7. If there is another significant attack on US soil we could be in Chapter 7. If there is a long, drawn out war in Iraq and oil prices go through the roof, that could be our downfall as well. And it absolutely does have to do with the economy and Iraq and our competitors and our past. Hopefully, though, we'll be able to pull together, stop the nonsense, and get back on the road to profitability.
 

hommegros

Newbie
Oct 13, 2002
14
0
ualdriver,

Get a clue!

'WE' (ALPA/IAM) are in denial!!!

'WE' are 'ALL' culpable!!! (Except the AFA)

Upper Management (BOD->CEO) , and ALPA more so than anyone.

Your 'DENIAL' exemplifies the stupidity of it all.

Don't call for 'SOLIDARITY' with that BS!!!

 

ualdriver

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
509
0
*******'WE' (ALPA/IAM) are in denial!!!***********

We are? The fact that I'm giving up voluntarily (almost!)29% of my wages for starters, more than ALPA's fair share, in order to get my company through its first financial hurdle in Chapter 11 should more than demonstrate that no one in ALPA is in denial.

******'WE' are 'ALL' culpable!!! (Except the AFA)************

Exactly what position in UAL do your work for Hommegros? There's plenty of blame for every employee group on the property, including the AFA. I'm sure that somehow we might be able to find plenty of "pork" in the AFA contract, as they will in the other unions' contracts.

*******Upper Management (BOD->CEO) , and ALPA more so than anyone.*******

OK Hommegros. I'll call your bluff. Please show me anything that proves that ALPA, or any one union for that matter, brought us to where we are today. This isn't USA Today Hommegros. Please provide the numbers and facts that back your allegations. Obviously you have them at your command to back your claims or you would not have made the above statements.

****Your 'DENIAL' exemplifies the stupidity of it all**********

Actually, your stamements exemplify the typical infighting and figerpointing that was one of the ingredients that got us to where we are today. So I guess when we're looking at the "stupidity of it all", we need to look no further than your posts.

******Don't call for 'SOLIDARITY' with that BS!!!***********

Hommegros you're obviously angry or bitter or whatever. Stop making ridiculous claims. Stop the fingerpointing. Stop saying its everyone elses' fault except yours. The sooner you do that, the sooner you'll be part of a solution. If you're so angry that you have to make baseless accusations and bash other employee groups, perhaps you should find another line of work?
 

N230UA

Advanced
Sep 24, 2002
114
0
Visit site
UALdriver wrote:

>*******FACT 3: ALPA and the IAM put Goodwin in charge because we thought he could be "groomed". OOPS >*********
>
>Goodwin put in a lifetime here at UAL, working his way up to VP of whatever it was, and there was no >reason why he couldn't have been successful as his tenure as CEO. Unfortunately, his own ineptitude and >failure to learn from the lessons of the past served to hasten his demise. For all practical intents and >purposes, he SHOULD have been a good CEO.


While I do agree Goodwin appeared to be a good candidate... there was a BETTER one. John Edwardson, widely acknowledged as one of the best CEOs out there -in any industry-, and who was the protege of Greenwald. Edwarwdson was a fair man who was not afraid to tell the cold, hard truth, and negotiate firmly but amicably. He was absolutely the type of leadership United needed, not a spineless insider.

I have talked with the man, and he specifically said he get very violent, knee-jerk reactions from 'spoiled' ALPA leaders when even casually discussing productivity changes. The man was not opposed to C2K wage hikes, but he wanted an increase in productivity commensurate with the size of the raises, and ine line with other business environments. To resort to the excuse that the airline industry 'is different' is just giving up on the much needed revolution of airline operations into modern day business practices.

Is it not true that a significant (greater than 30%) amount of United pilots have second jobs? Why? Because of productivity rules. With the pilot type of salary in any other industry, you could not have a second job. Is it not true that the most senior 747-400 pilots fly less than 20 trips per year across the Pacific? Well Edwardson believe those 747-400 pilots certainly deserved 300K, even 400K salaries... if they flew at least double those trips... which isn't even all that many.

The rejection of such a man resulted in a BRAIN DRAIN of all that Greenwald attempted to foster in an unprecendented, albiet flawed, ESOP.


>*******>FACT 4: The pilot slowdown was the start of UAL loosing money.
> **********
>
>UAL would have been losing money Summer of 2000 or not. Even Carty (American's CEO) made the statement >that he had never seen business travel fall off so quickly in so short a time when the INDUSTRY was >floundering in 2001-2002. To blame any group for that is absolue nonsense.


This is sheer denial. United lost its shirt during the job action of May-Aug 2000. That year was a record for profits at other airlines, although, to be sure, some of their profits came at the expense of United. Untied would have been on track to have its _th consecutive most profitable year, had it not been for the losses incurred in 3rd and 4th quarters.

The summer of 2000 was the heaviest travel season in decades, which was why even with all the job action, United was still able to make some profit. But, undeniably, that profit would have been the highest quarterly profit in the company's history had it not been for poor management-labor relations. After all, nearly every other major set records for highest quarterly profits during Q2/Q3 2000.
 

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