***TO ALL TWU MEMBERS****

[TWU informer]

Not really sounding weak Bob. You are calling the spade a spade.

I would rather work under this agreement and wait, than work under the next TWU Industry Leading Concession that not only hurts us but everyone else in the industry too.

Fact is this union is weak and its because the leadership has become "the union" and the dues paying members no longer support them and their appointed leadership direction.

NMB refusing a ballot based on lies by AA and the TWU creates a union on the property by declaration and that does nothing but weaken a union organization. I hope Jim Little is proud that he has successfully prevented voting by the members of the union and created the weakest labor organization on the planet. I am just fine with letting a stronger union negotiate for us, in fact we should volunteer dues to the IBT to help them out.

 

[The Goose]

... snip

I hope Jim Little is proud that he has successfully prevented voting by the members of the union and created the weakest labor organization on the planet.

... snip

Little doesn't really care what we think - he's still making $236k per year.

 

[FWAAA]

<snip>

Hoffa was able to oust AMFA at UAL by making huge promises but the workers there have little to show for the change in representation other than a higher dues rate, and they have made changing unions a regular occurance. IAM-AMFA-IBT all within a decade. If the IBT doesnt deliver something other than excuses the UAL guys will oust them as well.

The IBT will be looking to bring all thier members up to industry leading so they could better their odds at getting FED-EX and Delta, winning representation at those two bastions of anti-unionism would be a huge victory for Hoffa, and in order to do so he has to prove to those mechanics that going IBT would get them superior wages and working conditions.

I think we will see a lot more action over at the IBT camps this year. You have to remember that the IBT is ten times the size of the TWU, they have a lot more resources, their chances of a victory are much better given their track record, their structure,their culture and their internal politics. Just as we let AMFA at NWA set the industry standard back in 2001 we would probably be better served by doing the same, except with the IBT, this time around. (Hey I know this sounds weak, letting everyone else set the standards but at least we can claim we set the standards for the biggest concessions outside of bankruptcy. :huh: ) The recent TA at Eagle that includes no pay raises only further enforces this belief.

More than six and a half years ago I asked why you guys didn't hitch your wagon with the Teamsters. From the wayback machine:

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...ost&p=69132

As you pointed out, the UAL mechanics have a revolving door when it comes to their union, and you guys are still paying dues to the worthless union years and years after the one failed AMFA card drive.

 

[iluvaa]

More than six and a half years ago I asked why you guys didn't hitch your wagon with the Teamsters. From the wayback machine:

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...ost&p=69132

As you pointed out, the UAL mechanics have a revolving door when it comes to their union, and you guys are still paying dues to the worthless union years and years after the one failed AMFA card drive.

We tried they told the TWU they would not raid them if I remember correctly

 

[Hopeful]

More than six and a half years ago I asked why you guys didn't hitch your wagon with the Teamsters. From the wayback machine:

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...ost&p=69132

As you pointed out, the UAL mechanics have a revolving door when it comes to their union, and you guys are still paying dues to the worthless union years and years after the one failed AMFA card drive.

I would say that most line stations would not mind a change of representation. But our union brothers and sisters in TUL might not agree. They have a large voting block there and have been playing into the TWU's hands of threatening to reduce that base and outsource all the heavy checks if the TWU were no longer the bargaining agent. This was part of their defense when the AMFA drive was in progress.
They have been employing the divide and conquer tactics of the TWU for decades..the BASE vs. the LINE argument has been and still is one of the main reasons we cannot shake the TWU.

I wish the Teamsters would start a drive at AA. Get them to talk about keeping everything in house and no longer giving concessions and everything else the company desires.

And the "NO RAID" policy of the teamsters should no longer apply as they are not affiliated with the AFL-CIO anymore, if I remember correctly.

We should all stick together and fight for RESTORE and MORE....and not succumb to the TWU pro company rhethoric.

 

[700UW]

The bad thing about the IBT is their scope language sucks, UPS, WN (when IBT) and CO outsource the majority of their mtc.

 

[Kev3188]

And the "NO RAID" policy of the teamsters should no longer apply as they are not affiliated with the AFL-CIO anymore, if I remember correctly.

Correct.

 

[The Goose]

Correct.

Didn't UAL's mekaniks boot AMFA and replace them with the Teamsters? I seem to remember somebody did that and then the problems started when they couldn't find a union rep anywhere.

Not trying to generate anything negative so much as trying to find out if the Teamsters are actually that nonresponsive after fresh dues are secured.

Second question - is there a card drive? Where would I get a card to sign?

Even no union would be better than the TWU.

 

[Kev3188]

They did go with the IBT. There's some discussion about the trouble they're having over on the UAL board.

 

[Barfbag]

If Massachusetts can manage to elect a Republican, surely you guys could replace the TWU....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4aQCiRjvZY...ature=topvideos

 

[MTheory]

I have mixed feelings on being released. Looking at the broader economy and other factors I have concerns about being the first to be released and free to go to self help. And it has little to do with the current recession thats being caused by the restriction of capital.

The above quote is from January 22, 2010

If for some reason the company did reject our concessionary offer I would be in favor of being released, then real negotiations could begin. Do you really think that Citibank and all those others who just dumped billions into AA are going to let AA go BK through a strike? AA will have to get serious about a deal once the clock starts ticking, their creditors will demand it. AA would be stupid to try and shoot for bottom pay, unlike 2005 there isnt a supply of mechanics out there and there isnt a surpluss of seats out there either.

The above quote is from October 9 2009. Post #1319

--------------------

My, how things change.......Welcome to reality Bob.
I didnt think an old Irishman like you could be swayed. Im glad you are starting to see that anyone can make big talk, but its alot harder to turn that talk into positive, meaningfull action until you understand what you are up against. :blink:

 

[Bob Owens]

The above quote is from January 22, 2010



The above quote is from October 9 2009. Post #1319

--------------------

My, how things change.......Welcome to reality Bob.
I didnt think an old Irishman like you could be swayed. Im glad you are starting to see that anyone can make big talk, but its alot harder to turn that talk into positive, meaningfull action until you understand what you are up against. :blink:

Well mixed feelings doesnt mean swayed. I understand and understood what we are up against, I just expressed it, but that doesnt mean that I would be willing to accept another crappy contract or be willing to drag the talks on endlessly. But since we have gone on this long maybe we should wait and see what our brothers and sisters at UAL put on the table and modify ours accordingly. IIRC I said pretty much the same thing about CAL last Summer and you were critical of taking such a position, stating that it was weak and we should negotiate based on our own merits, market conditions etc. Well after seeing what the IBT threw out there at CAL do you now agree that it was benificial to our position?

Recently you commented on some of the numbers I threw out there as far as what other mechanics are making. How does it feel that regular mechanics at other carriers are making five or six dollars more an hour than Tech Crew chiefs at AA? Does it make you want to make AA #1 when they are trying to put you to the bottom of the industry?

Another concern I have right now is that a lot of attention will be focused and read into how much AA puts into the pension fund. They put in ZERO last year so the payment this year is much larger than it would normally be. Its been said that if they put in the minimum at first and spread it out over the year we should be concerned of a possible BK filing. I dont buy it. I think they will put in the minimum because if I were running the business I would do that. Why tie up all that capital if I dont have to? It costs them nothing to spread out the payments and in the meantime they could pay down or incurr less debt and save on interest. In light of the recent AE TA, where the little I heard was enough, "no pay increases", and the feedback I've gotten of what was told to their guys and the familiar catch lines, such as 'Cash in our members pockets" , I'm concerned that our sub-committee will come back with a slightly modified version of the June supposal, which was a slightly modified version of the August 2008 proposal which was a modified version of the companys original proposal and tell us what an improvement it is over the companys latest proposal and that in light of the minimal pension payment and possible BK filing we should bring this back to the members and get "a little cash in their pockets" before they file. There wont be a recommendation, just a lot of doom and gloom, but "you guys decide". Then after it gets voted in by a slim majority we see UAL come out and ask for what SWA is getting. Two years from now when everyone else is making in the mid $40s and we are still making less than we were in 2003 and we complain we will be told, "your negotiating committee brought it back and you voted it in so dont blame the International". As far as the 'convertable" lump sums, the company would find some way of getting out of that just like they did the "ME Too" clause back in 95.

 

[Hopeful]

The above quote is from January 22, 2010



The above quote is from October 9 2009. Post #1319

--------------------

My, how things change.......Welcome to reality Bob.
I didnt think an old Irishman like you could be swayed. Im glad you are starting to see that anyone can make big talk, but its alot harder to turn that talk into positive, meaningfull action until you understand what you are up against. :blink:

Are you French by any chance?

 

[MTheory]

Well mixed feelings doesnt mean swayed. I understand and understood what we are up against, I just expressed it, but that doesnt mean that I would be willing to accept another crappy contract or be willing to drag the talks on endlessly. But since we have gone on this long maybe we should wait and see what our brothers and sisters at UAL put on the table and modify ours accordingly. IIRC I said pretty much the same thing about CAL last Summer and you were critical of taking such a position, stating that it was weak and we should negotiate based on our own merits, market conditions etc. Well after seeing what the IBT threw out there at CAL do you now agree that it was benificial to our position?

Recently you commented on some of the numbers I threw out there as far as what other mechanics are making. How does it feel that regular mechanics at other carriers are making five or six dollars more an hour than Tech Crew chiefs at AA? Does it make you want to make AA #1 when they are trying to put you to the bottom of the industry?

Bob;

Thanks for the reply..................However I am in no way saying that we should give up, or accept a sub standard contract. I happen to agree with you that being released may not be the best way to go at this point. I too have "mixed feeleings" about it. The point I am making is that your view has changed since October. Which in my opinion is a good thing. I would like to think that my elected representatives are thinking with a clear head, and can adapt to, and recognize changing situations.
I dont know if waiting for another union to come through with a good contract will help us either. The Company will always find an excuse as to why "they dont count". TUL is a big factor in all of this, but even without them AMT wages in NY are still low. DAL is looking for guys at LGA and JFK and are still only willing to pay $23.00 to start. North American are recruiting Aviation H.S. students as "interns" for $8.50/hr. This all hurts us. As you have stated we have an aging workforce, and eventually they have to be replaced, but that is too far down the road to have an impact on current negotiations. It appears that we are at a stalemate in regards to negotiations, and it will take a lot of thought and UNITY on how best to proceed.

I think that we both recognize what is a stake. And we both want the same things in the end. I do not think that any AMT or any other union brother/sister could feel good about the current situation.

 

[MTheory]

Are you French by any chance?

Are you looking for a date? :unsure: