TWU Chapter 11 - AA 1113 Filing

[Bob Owens]

<_< -------- Read my edited post!

What you are missing is that when you took your cuts in Bk back at TWA when you landed you still were making decent pay. Even after BK TWA could demand that applicants have years of heavy turbine experience, and they got them. back in 2000 the FAA was still issuing around 9500 original mechanics certificates a year, now it's less than 6000. In real terms the pay is 40 % less than it was back in 2003. Every few weeks there's another article about how FBOs can't find or retain workers, well they are the canary in the coal mine for the industry. When they can't get workers the airlines can't get them either once they have depleted the FBOs of their workers.

AA knows its coming, they have already made deals with several schools across the country but in most of these large metro areas they are competing with utilities and other industries that offer better security, pay and benefits. Frankly, the airlines don't have much to offer anymore, flight benefits are not much of an incentive when we have $100 fares and layoffs, bk filings, drug testing, and mechanics being charged with manslaughter.

Mechanics pay across many parts of he industry has bottomed out. It's getting to the point where mechanics who have put in the years to get a job at a major would not even have to take a temporary hit in pay to start a new career, Mechanics at FBOs no longer have an incentive to pay their dues working at an FBO to get experience because there is no payoff at the majors, as I've posted before my wife's starting pay was $6/more than my topped out pay.

 

[MCI transplant]

What you are missing is that when you took your cuts in Bk back at TWA when you landed you still were making decent pay. Even after BK TWA could demand that applicants have years of heavy turbine experience, and they got them. back in 2000 the FAA was still issuing around 9500 original mechanics certificates a year, now it's less than 6000. In real terms the pay is 40 % less than it was back in 2003. Every few weeks there's another article about how FBOs can't find or retain workers, well they are the canary in the coal mine for the industry. When they can't get workers the airlines can't get them either once they have depleted the FBOs of their workers.

AA knows its coming, they have already made deals with several schools across the country but in most of these large metro areas they are competing with utilities and other industries that offer better security, pay and benefits. Frankly, the airlines don't have much to offer anymore, flight benefits are not much of an incentive when we have $100 fares and layoffs, bk filings, drug testing, and mechanics being charged with manslaughter.

Mechanics pay across many parts of he industry has bottomed out. It's getting to the point where mechanics who have put in the years to get a job at a major would not even have to take a temporary hit in pay to start a new career, Mechanics at FBOs no longer have an incentive to pay their dues working at an FBO to get experience because there is no payoff at the majors, as I've posted before my wife's starting pay was $6/more than my topped out pay.

<_< ------- Bob, you're preaching to the chore! I've got a Son in the Industry!------- But tell me, how many A&P tickets did the FAA issue last year in China? Or El Salvador? ------- And believe me, I wish it weren't that way! I've tried to convince my Son to get out!----- But now he has his own family, and says he loves what he does.---- Go figure! At least the good news is, he's not working for AMR!

 

[tech2101]

I do know that we really have no more say in the outcome, but we do have a say in whether we choose to stay or leave for the terms that we end up with.

Great attitude. We, the honorable at NWA, chose to walk away (strike).

What would be wrong is to stay and scorch the place before leaving so those that might wish to stay have nothing to stay for.

I still shudder to think that there were individuals that chose to damage equipment before leaving. I never saw this happen, but heard of the reports.

All of the honorable I worked with and knew and still maintain friendships, never compromised our work ethic. We worked hard until the time we had our badges confiscated.

One day we will all look at our own responsibilities that has lead to this outcome and stop blaming someone else or something.

The mirror is is a great thing. I have no problem looking it each and every day.

 

[Boomer]

Let us RECAP:

TWU Informer gives an opinion of what our concessions could be; and, 700UW and Kev3188, representing the IAM SCABS that helped to bust the AMFA Strike at NWA, enter the picture to lower our expectations.

Sounds like the IAM is supporting a Labor Raid on the membership of the TWU, both AFL-CIO, through some wished-for merger between US Airways and AMR.

As much as I wish to remove the TWU as my bargaining agent: you SCAB b@st@rds at the IAM will never get my vote; and once AMR gets the chance to couple their message with the most corporate friendly union in America, the TWU, you do not stand any chance due to the simple demographics.

Unless the TWU has already been bought out by the IAM. ;-)- (edited to add a smiley-not)

 

[700UW]

Lets recap, I did not have anything to do with the IAM at NW.

Second, your pilots in ALPA flew over your picket lines.

Your sister union the PFAA flew over your picket lines.

The IBT represented Champion pilots flew flights for NW.

Your dispatchers took care of MELS and arranging line mtc where and if a plane went OTS.

And receipt and dispatch and ancillary work was in the Fleet CBA and the ramp did it at more stations than AMFA represented mechanics, and upon imposition of NWA's final offer the language was removed from the CBA maing it AMFA covered work.

So please explain to me how R&D and Air Starts broke AMFA at NW.

Last time I checked the primary scope of an A&P is to fix planes, not drive a tug.

So your lame insults just show your wrong and cant control the debate.

Face facts, AMFA screwed you at NW and you have no one else to blame except yourself, your coworkers and your so called AMFA leadership.

 

[Kev3188]

Let us RECAP:

TWU Informer gives an opinion of what our concessions could be; and, 700UW and Kev3188, representing the IAM SCABS that helped to bust the AMFA Strike at NWA, enter the picture to lower our expectations.

The only thing I "represent" in this thread is someone who's already been through the 1113 wringer.

As far as expectations, do you actually have high ones? If so, you may be in for a serious disappointment. I'd have no problem being proven wrong when it's all said & done for you guys, though.

 

[Buck]

Let us RECAP:

TWU Informer gives an opinion of what our concessions could be; and, 700UW and Kev3188, representing the IAM SCABS that helped to bust the AMFA Strike at NWA, enter the picture to lower our expectations.

Sounds like the IAM is supporting a Labor Raid on the membership of the TWU, both AFL-CIO, through some wished-for merger between US Airways and AMR.

As much as I wish to remove the TWU as my bargaining agent: you SCAB b@st@rds at the IAM will never get my vote; and once AMR gets the chance to couple their message with the most corporate friendly union in America, the TWU, you do not stand any chance due to the simple demographics.

Unless the TWU has already been bought out by the IAM. ;-)- (edited to add a smiley-not)

I don't understand, the IAM bought the TWU from American Airlines????

 

[eolesen]

The thing these other airline guys have said (and that some of you are apparently still in denial over) is about as true as it can get:

Cuts are coming, and what happened to you eight years ago is now ancient history.

I've said this time and time again --- you guys think you got raped in 2003, but all you got was an unwanted pat on the butt. The guys at TW, NW and US experienced far worse cuts in a shorter timeframe than you can imagine.

When the cuts are imposed, some of you will have choices. Many won't. They'll either be gone, or they'll have no choice but to accept it and move on.

Bickering about whose union is better is about as useful as a bag of hammers in a laundromat. They're all useless in my opinion -- not a single one has prevented offshoring or job cuts, and all of them are interested in one thing and one thing only: feeding at the dues teat.

 

[DallasConehead]

I think you missed the point. I respect what you guys did and I was against the concessions in 2003, in fact we fought it so hard that our International removed Chuck Schalk and I from office and kept us out for five years. Both of us have been re-elected twice since. He is promoting concessions because they fell over themselves back in 2002 to give concessions, only to see the company file C-11 anyway and come back for more. He defended the decision to give concessions both before and after BK. We have been going at it since 2002. I had urged our International President at the time to pledge support for USAIr workers in BK and threaten a General Strike of all he airline unions should they abrogate USAIRs contract with their unions. I knew that if they got away with it there that we all would end up getting screwed. He is coming here saying that we are going to face what he faced, my point is we already did, we just gave in different ways. We gave in ways that saved AA more in the present tense, vacation, Holidays, sick time, IOD Time, a 600% increase in medical coverage, straight time for hours worked in excess of 40 etc, they retained many things that we gave up but lost things in the future. Basically they went for the bird in he hand while we went for the one in the bush. but for him to come here and claim that we have not suffered is wrong and if he is right then I too will do like you and move on.

^^^^^^^^^
Foolish believer in fairy tales. Enjoys tell these stories to the children that believe them. The children will be happy when they believe the fairy tales.

 

[bigjets]

The thing these other airline guys have said (and that some of you are apparently still in denial over) is about as true as it can get:

Cuts are coming, and what happened to you eight years ago is now ancient history.

I've said this time and time again --- you guys think you got raped in 2003, but all you got was an unwanted pat on the butt. The guys at TW, NW and US experienced far worse cuts in a shorter timeframe than you can imagine.

When the cuts are imposed, some of you will have choices. Many won't. They'll either be gone, or they'll have no choice but to accept it and move on.

Bickering about whose union is better is about as useful as a bag of hammers in a laundromat. They're all useless in my opinion -- not a single one has prevented offshoring or job cuts, and all of them are interested in one thing and one thing only: feeding at the dues teat.

Has the union free employees faired worse then the unionized employees of BK airlines?

 

[Rogallo]

Has the union free employees faired worse then the unionized employees of BK airlines?

"Union Free". I like that. Kinda like being relieved of something terrible. alcohol free, drug free, TWU FREE!! :unsure: :unsure:

 

[Bob Owens]

Has the union free employees faired worse then the unionized employees of BK airlines?

Shh, you are not supposed to bring that up.

The fact is that union people have a platform from which to fight back. Non union people dont, in fact companies dont even need to file BK to screw those people over. So far nobody has chosen to fight, except the mechanics at NWA, unfortunately most of the other Unions, as 700UW pointed out, sided with the companies in favor of concessions instead of conflict, so they were not successful, interestingly enough I bet when you check the LM-2s of all those organizations who chose to tell their members to choose "concessions over conflict" you wont see where any of those so called leaders lead by example, they continued to get pay raises.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Shh, you are not supposed to bring that up.

The fact is that union people have a platform from which to fight back. Non union people dont.

Those who are non-union are in no different condition that we are except for the fact we've paid dues to get screwed over.

In fact companies dont even need to file BK to screw those people over.

You're correct - while "keeping everyone employed" is an admirable goal, its true use has been to keep dues paying members on payroll, enriching the twu. Kinda like 2003 for us - right?

... snip

The bottom line is that we have no representation at the table working for the membership and we can get screwed for free without the twu's "assistance".

 

[Bob Owens]

Those who are non-union are in no different condition that we are except for the fact we've paid dues to get screwed over.

They didnt have any say when the company took away their DB pensions and Retiree Medical a few years back did they? That puts them in a different position than you. I dont know haw many non-union people you come across where you are but here on the line we see what they do to the agents and support staff. I agree that we have not done well but at least we were given the opportunity to vote on it, as a group we had options.

At least with us our Prefunding accounts remain in place unless we are dumb enough to vote them away. We are entitled to all of the funds unless we are dumb enough to opt out of it. The non-union workers only got back what they put in plus interest, dont know if they ever even had a match. For some the amounts could be very substantial, I'm locked in at the lowest rates yet I still have $13,000 sitting there to pay for retiree medical down the road, there are many that have triple what I have. Have you checked to see whats in your account? All you have to do is call JP Morgan, they will only tell you what your contributions balance is if you opt out, but remember it is a Dollar for dollar match so if the plan is terminated you get double the amount they quote.

 

[eolesen]

Until there's a ruling, I wouldn't count on getting the company's contributions.

Legally, the company can't hold onto the employee's prefunding contributions + interest, but if the contract can be abrogated, so can the 1992 agreement covering prefunding.

Historically, I don't think non-union groups have fared as badly as the unions when it comes to concessions. As you said, the company can already do whatever they want. It's a fact that agents lost less than anyone else at AA in 2003. How the pm-NW folks were treated is another story, but DL must not have treated their non-union employees all that bad, otherwise they'd have voted in unions during the last round of representation votes....