TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Our pension check would say PBGC rather than AA if that had happened.

If you recall American Airlines TRIED to dump the pension on the PBGC. They failed.
 
You stating what WOULD have happened is theory not fact. Don't present it as so. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

AA two bites at the Apple.

I have been saying the same thing for years Bob.
 
The TWU fan club refuses to accept that they got took...... They only answer in would haves and could haves. See an example in the post above.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

The company doesnt get to simply choose the size of the pie they offer labor,

Yeah..... actually they do.
 

thats negotiated.

Exactly. It is negotiated by the TWU........
 

Its up to Labor to say "F%^& You , we need a bigger pie".

Is that before or after the TWU accepts a rejected contract in the memberships "best interest"? 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 

Past history that neither one of us no matter how smart we both think we are know what would have happened. So anything we both say is purely speculative.

Before it was would have.......
 

 

If the tree in the backyard really is no longer yeilding any fruit then we really can't expect to be able to pick anything off it. You say that the tree still had fruit and I say that I don't think it had enough to plant seeds with? Who's really correct? 

It bore enough fruit for the "golden parachute" fund. 
 
It bore enough fruit to make the largest purchase in airline history.

 

[Shafted]

WN: $25.97
DL: $24.82
UA: $ $24.60 (currently)
AS: $23.78 (goes to $24.14 on 6/1)

These are base rates only. And of course, base rates don't necessarily equate to total compensation.

...And Bob's right; we should all be talking to each other more. A lot more...
 
 

 
These are the rates for what classification ?

 

[Bob Owens]

It was a joke Bob. But no I don't have an educational skill-set like the one you have and my employment for what I have learned to do through OJI is not quite the same as what you have. 
I don't have a problem admitting that and absolutely realize that you should be compensated better than me.

Never said anything about my pay vs yours in the post, simply an observation of the low self esteem, jokingly or not, that lowers the expectations and gets workers to accept concessions. In BK negotiations, when the Fleet guys accepted the concessions I asked one of them why, his response was "Your guys have options, for our guys its 'will that be paper or plastic"". If a mechanic said that you would blast him as an elitist, and you would be right, but what about when its one of your own? You guys basically perform the same functions as Longshormen, but you arent compensated like they are. Perhaps you need to study their organizational structure and put some pressure on your union to make some changes. Tim Nelson sees it, but even within a single union at a single employer once guys get in positions that remove them from the bag room staying out of that bagroom takes priority over making things better in the bagroom. You guys are still split up into many small, financially strapped Locals and nothing is being done to change that, so dont expect better results down the road. The low esteem enables this to continue. Mechanics may be elitists but at least many are willing to fight for what they believe they deserve and you cant blame them from wanting to distance themselves from those who dont.

What you guys need to do is capitalize on security, make barriers to entry and limit the supply of labor. As long as you have guys out there on the ramp making minimum wage for contractors it will be difficult to compete. The Union needs to push for more in depth back ground checks, that would eliminate roughly 20% of the population from working on the airport, probably around 50% of the population thats willing to work for minimum wage.

 

[Kev3188]

These are the rates for what classification ?

Ramp service.



  

Never said anything about my pay vs yours in the post, simply an observation of the low self esteem, jokingly or not, that lowers the expectations and gets workers to accept concessions. In BK negotiations, when the Fleet guys accepted the concessions I asked one of them why, his response was "Your guys have options, for our guys its 'will that be paper or plastic"". If a mechanic said that you would blast him as an elitist, and you would be right, but what about when its one of your own? You guys basically perform the same functions as Longshormen, but you arent compensated like they are. Perhaps you need to study their organizational structure and put some pressure on your union to make some changes. Tim Nelson sees it, but even within a single union at a single employer once guys get in positions that remove them from the bag room staying out of that bagroom takes priority over making things better in the bagroom. You guys are still split up into many small, financially strapped Locals and nothing is being done to change that, so dont expect better results down the road. The low esteem enables this to continue. Mechanics may be elitists but at least many are willing to fight for what they believe they deserve and you cant blame them from wanting to distance themselves from those who dont.
What you guys need to do is capitalize on security, make barriers to entry and limit the supply of labor. As long as you have guys out there on the ramp making minimum wage for contractors it will be difficult to compete. The Union needs to push for more in depth back ground checks, that would eliminate roughly 20% of the population from working on the airport, probably around 50% of the population thats willing to work for minimum wage.

If I had a nickel for everything I've heard something along the lines of "I'm just a ramper," we could all retire. People very quickly lose sight of the value they bring to an organization, what they're actually responsible for, and the revenue they help generate.

 

[Bob Owens]

Ramp service.
  

If I had a nickel for everything I've heard something along the lines of "I'm just a ramper," we could all retire. People very quickly lose sight of the value they bring to an organization, what they're actually responsible for, and the revenue they help generate.

Whats really tragic is that while it may be expected from the management side it comes from those who are suppsedly union.

 

[WeAAsles]

Never said anything about my pay vs yours in the post, simply an observation of the low self esteem, jokingly or not, that lowers the expectations and gets workers to accept concessions. In BK negotiations, when the Fleet guys accepted the concessions I asked one of them why, his response was "Your guys have options, for our guys its 'will that be paper or plastic"". If a mechanic said that you would blast him as an elitist, and you would be right, but what about when its one of your own? You guys basically perform the same functions as Longshormen, but you arent compensated like they are. Perhaps you need to study their organizational structure and put some pressure on your union to make some changes. Tim Nelson sees it, but even within a single union at a single employer once guys get in positions that remove them from the bag room staying out of that bagroom takes priority over making things better in the bagroom. You guys are still split up into many small, financially strapped Locals and nothing is being done to change that, so dont expect better results down the road. The low esteem enables this to continue. Mechanics may be elitists but at least many are willing to fight for what they believe they deserve and you cant blame them from wanting to distance themselves from those who dont.

What you guys need to do is capitalize on security, make barriers to entry and limit the supply of labor. As long as you have guys out there on the ramp making minimum wage for contractors it will be difficult to compete. The Union needs to push for more in depth back ground checks, that would eliminate roughly 20% of the population from working on the airport, probably around 50% of the population thats willing to work for minimum wage.

Now you hit on exactly the problem I have to face every day. But I think it's even more than just low self esteem. It's low self esteem and apathy. Too many people I work with are apathetic because they don't think there's anything they can do about their lot in life and they don't even get involved to give it a shot at change. I highlighted your comment though because yes I've gotten that one too. And there aren't enough leaders out there who know how to lead. Oh they can give you information and they can defend the contract but they don't know how to inspire people to get out of that mindset. And management also knows exactly how to continue to push to keep those people with that mindset down. They bombard the field with their presence and nitpick every item they can find. It's a psychological mindphuck and if people would get that it wouldn't be happening. Also Bob not everyone has the NYC upbringing that I think is more in tune with not putting up with BS (Yes there is a NYC strong voice ideology) 12 years in DFW and 6 in MIA convinced me that we have something they don't have. (East coast way)

As far as too many Locals, you'll get no argument from me on that one either. Too many people want their own leather chair even if the only one they really can afford is plastic. I don't know if nothing is being done but if anything is it's a slow moving process. Maybe they're hoping they'll get enough under the JCBA that they don't have to do it, but they should do it anyway. I talk to a lot of people out there and deep down they know it. Pride makes the move like pulling teeth though. But yes they should be consolidated down to 5 max. NYC, ORD, MIA, DFW and LAX. (Sorry to the locals that don't agree)

"What you guys need to do is capitalize on security, make barriers to entry and limit the supply of labor. As long as you have guys out there on the ramp making minimum wage for contractors it will be difficult to compete. The Union needs to push for more in depth back ground checks, that would eliminate roughly 20% of the population from working on the airport, probably around 50% of the population that's willing to work for minimum wage"

Agree 100% with everything you just wrote on this one. We should also be pushing to be FAA certified and have random drug testing as well. That too would weed out quite a few people and leave the one's who truly appreciate and would protect their jobs. We need to push for National airport minimums like the one that passed at SeaTac and join people in cities like yours where they have been protesting for that. We can't put our heads in the sand and ignore that these low wage contractors, employed and paid by our own airlines are a major problem. Whether Unionized or not and even if it's other Unions who are trying to organize them we should assist in that initiative. AND we also should be helping the IAM who has there foot in the door organize the ramp at Delta. (35% roughly of that group is Ready Reserve, $14.00 per hour max with no benefits)

Our Local Political coordinators or reps need to start talking about this at their COPE meetings and start to make the membership aware that they need to get involved to help make these things happen. We can't keep thinking we're in a bubble.

 

[Kev3188]

AND we also should be helping the IAM who has there foot in the door organize the ramp at Delta. (35% roughly of that group is Ready Reserve, $14.00 per hour max with no benefits).

It's even worse than that: $12.36/hr., and you are restricted on how many hours you can work...

 

[WeAAsles]

It's even worse than that: $12.36/hr., and you are restricted on how many hours you can work...

My bad Kev. So if I'm correct in the things certain individuals have told me this is the DL ramp in a nutshell. 35% Ready Reserve PT,  30% regular scale PT and 35% regular scale FT? Insane Medical and Prescription costs that deduct substantially from the Profit Sharing doled out into one pocket and taken out of the other for costs incurred if you have issues medically that need attention? Not to mention the Dental plan as well that barely pays out anything?

Can you add other items to make this a more well rounded light shed? 

 

[Bob Owens]

Now you hit on exactly the problem I have to face every day. But I think it's even more than just low self esteem. It's low self esteem and apathy. Too many people I work with are apathetic because they don't think there's anything they can do about their lot in life and they don't even get involved to give it a shot at change. I highlighted your comment though because yes I've gotten that one too. And there aren't enough leaders out there who know how to lead. Oh they can give you information and they can defend the contract but they don't know how to inspire people to get out of that mindset. And management also knows exactly how to continue to push to keep those people with that mindset down. They bombard the field with their presence and nitpick every item they can find. It's a psychological mindphuck and if people would get that it wouldn't be happening. Also Bob not everyone has the NYC upbringing that I think is more in tune with not putting up with BS (Yes there is a NYC strong voice ideology) 12 years in DFW and 6 in MIA convinced me that we have something they don't have. (East coast way)
As far as too many Locals, you'll get no argument from me on that one either. Too many people want their own leather chair even if the only one they really can afford is plastic. I don't know if nothing is being done but if anything is it's a slow moving process. Maybe they're hoping they'll get enough under the JCBA that they don't have to do it, but they should do it anyway. I talk to a lot of people out there and deep down they know it. Pride makes the move like pulling teeth though. But yes they should be consolidated down to 5 max. NYC, ORD, MIA, DFW and LAX. (Sorry to the locals that don't agree)"What you guys need to do is capitalize on security, make barriers to entry and limit the supply of labor. As long as you have guys out there on the ramp making minimum wage for contractors it will be difficult to compete. The Union needs to push for more in depth back ground checks, that would eliminate roughly 20% of the population from working on the airport, probably around 50% of the population that's willing to work for minimum wage"
Agree 100% with everything you just wrote on this one. We should also be pushing to be FAA certified and have random drug testing as well. That too would weed out quite a few people and leave the one's who truly appreciate and would protect their jobs. We need to push for National airport minimums like the one that passed at SeaTac and join people in cities like yours where they have been protesting for that. We can't put our heads in the sand and ignore that these low wage contractors, employed and paid by our own airlines are a major problem. Whether Unionized or not and even if it's other Unions who are trying to organize them we should assist in that initiative. AND we also should be helping the IAM who has there foot in the door organize the ramp at Delta. (35% roughly of that group is Ready Reserve, $14.00 per hour max with no benefits)
Our Local Political coordinators or reps need to start talking about this at their COPE meetings and start to make the membership aware that they need to get involved to help make these things happen. We can't keep thinking we're in a bubble.

Blaming the membership is pointless. Low self esteem drives Apathty. If the company AND the Union you pay to represent you are both in agreement that you should give concessions why would anyone bother? For nearly 30 years I've heard "Give the company this one, we'll get em next time". Fighting my own union has been the challenge, its blocked every attempt to fight the company. First they say "Step up and do something about it", then when you do they basically do everything they possibly can to make you forget about change and conform, if they cant do that they either remove you or do what they can to marginalize you. Our organization needs to change or we need to change organizations before we can expect to see an engaged membership. While I am glad that Little and his team are gone I'm dissapointed in the new regimes behavior toward M&R and the fact that they have pretty much ostracized line maintenance and 567 at AA from the Union. First there was the Convention, where we were seperated from the rest of AA and put in the back row, then were were not allowed on any committees, then there were threatening speaches obviously targeted at us, the choice of Gary Yingst as a speaker, then there was the fact they loaded up the ATD with all FSCs and appointed the maintenance guy with the least experience of all to an internatiopnal spot, (the only maint voice in the Intenational is Tulsa) there were promises made that were then forgotten and then they stopped Title II guys from joining Local 591 when even the Local that had them was willing to let them join 591. Clearly the Interrnational does not support allowing 591 to get Title II in all the line stations because that would upset the Fleet locals that are dependant on their dues.

As far as COPE I went there for several years, supported everything that was put across and sent the info out to my members. Even was able to get some members to go to rallys in the city. I still forward out whatever I get. However I was dissapointed at the lack of support I got when it came to addressing an issue that severely cripples airline unions, that was correcting the interpretation of 1167 which on the one hand allow the courts to abrogate our contract and on the other deny us the right to self help when the company unilaterally imposes new terms. Other than getting it on the agenda for NY it went nowhere. I was told by our Eboard which attended other state conferences that there was no interest in those conferences. According to Brendon Danaher there was zero interest at the International level at correcting this, instead I was told I had to support changes that would protect the pensions of public workers in BK and to me as long as this remains uncorrected we are screwed. I was told around a year ago to wait because the Unions were pushing for BK reform that affects all workers, not just airline workers and that I needed to support that and it would be out in a few weeks. I explained that this needed to be addressed first because what we are asking for are the same rights everyone else has, not asking for special protections or massive reform, just asking for the same rights that all other workers get. He was indifferent. I knew that it wasnt going to go anywhere despite the fact I'd already contacted a few Pilots Unions who said they would be interested as well. I knew I was wasting my time. Going to those meetings consumed a whole day, that meant I would have to try and catch up on my regular workload on the weekend. So I stopped going. I'll still support what COPE does, such as the push to get the Airlines included in the NYC sick time law but I'm not going to waste my time pushing for things that those in control dont care about. Without correcting 1167 none of the rest matters, the pilots tried to correct this but they packaged it incorrectly, they asked for special protections instead of equal rights. The Republicans shot them down, hard for guys making six figures to plead for special protections but not so hard to have a guy in Military style Uniform demanding the same rights as everyone else.

I agree that membership involvement is critical, but its up to the leaders to gain their confidence and get them involved, the damage done to the TWU brand at AA by Koziatek, then even more so by Little is severe, I think that Lombardo and Samuelson were shocked when they saw it first hand when they went to the floor at JFK. I'm not even sure it can be repaired any more but what they have done so far by giving FSC overwheliming dominance at the International level and maintaining the failed FSC Local structures within the AA/TWU and blocking the consolidation of M&R into the three primary M&R Locals has been dissapointing and time is running out. Asking the members to get involved without seeing real change first is unrealistic, most of us have been around a long time and seen faces come and go and they all say the same thing, get involved if you want change, then when they get involved they say forget about change you are an officer of this Union and you have to support what ever we decide no matter what. It really gets bitter when you put in 60 to 80 hour weeks trying to get stuff done and make the Local work then get branded and ostracized as a closet AMFA supporter.

 

[WeAAsles]

Blaming the membership is pointless. Low self esteem drives Apathty. If the company AND the Union you pay to represent you are both in agreement that you should give concessions why would anyone bother? For nearly 30 years I've heard "Give the company this one, we'll get em next time". Fighting my own union has been the challenge, its blocked every attempt to fight the company. First they say "Step up and do something about it", then when you do they basically do everything they possibly can to make you forget about change and conform, if they cant do that they either remove you or do what they can to marginalize you. Our organization needs to change or we need to change organizations before we can expect to see an engaged membership. While I am glad that Little and his team are gone I'm dissapointed in the new regimes behavior toward M&R and the fact that they have pretty much ostracized line maintenance and 567 at AA from the Union. First there was the Convention, where we were seperated from the rest of AA and put in the back row, then were were not allowed on any committees, then there were threatening speaches obviously targeted at us, the choice of Gary Yingst as a speaker, then there was the fact they loaded up the ATD with all FSCs and appointed the maintenance guy with the least experience of all to an internatiopnal spot, (the only maint voice in the Intenational is Tulsa) there were promises made that were then forgotten and then they stopped Title II guys from joining Local 591 when even the Local that had them was willing to let them join 591. Clearly the Interrnational does not support allowing 591 to get Title II in all the line stations because that would upset the Fleet locals that are dependant on their dues.

As far as COPE I went there for several years, supported everything that was put across and sent the info out to my members. Even was able to get some members to go to rallys in the city. I still forward out whatever I get. However I was dissapointed at the lack of support I got when it came to addressing an issue that severely cripples airline unions, that was correcting the interpretation of 1167 which on the one hand allow the courts to abrogate our contract and on the other deny us the right to self help when the company unilaterally imposes new terms. Other than getting it on the agenda for NY it went nowhere. I was told by our Eboard which attended other state conferences that there was no interest in those conferences. According to Brendon Danaher there was zero interest at the International level at correcting this, instead I was told I had to support changes that would protect the pensions of public workers in BK and to me as long as this remains uncorrected we are screwed. I was told around a year ago to wait because the Unions were pushing for BK reform that affects all workers, not just airline workers and that I needed to support that and it would be out in a few weeks. I explained that this needed to be addressed first because what we are asking for are the same rights everyone else has, not asking for special protections or massive reform, just asking for the same rights that all other workers get. He was indifferent. I knew that it wasnt going to go anywhere despite the fact I'd already contacted a few Pilots Unions who said they would be interested as well. I knew I was wasting my time. Going to those meetings consumed a whole day, that meant I would have to try and catch up on my regular workload on the weekend. So I stopped going. I'll still support what COPE does, such as the push to get the Airlines included in the NYC sick time law but I'm not going to waste my time pushing for things that those in control dont care about. Without correcting 1167 none of the rest matters, the pilots tried to correct this but they packaged it incorrectly, they asked for special protections instead of equal rights. The Republicans shot them down, hard for guys making six figures to plead for special protections but not so hard to have a guy in Military style Uniform demanding the same rights as everyone else.

I agree that membership involvement is critical, but its up to the leaders to gain their confidence and get them involved, the damage done to the TWU brand at AA by Koziatek, then even more so by Little is severe, I think that Lombardo and Samuelson were shocked when they saw it first hand when they went to the floor at JFK. I'm not even sure it can be repaired any more but what they have done so far by giving FSC overwheliming dominance at the International level and maintaining the failed FSC Local structures within the AA/TWU and blocking the consolidation of M&R into the three primary M&R Locals has been dissapointing and time is running out. Asking the members to get involved without seeing real change first is unrealistic, most of us have been around a long time and seen faces come and go and they all say the same thing, get involved if you want change, then when they get involved they say forget about change you are an officer of this Union and you have to support what ever we decide no matter what. It really gets bitter when you put in 60 to 80 hour weeks trying to get stuff done and make the Local work then get branded and ostracized as a closet AMFA supporter.

A lot of stuff in here to digest and I'm not even sure where to begin? First of all if they have marginalized your group that's wrong. But I think it's a balance of problems that should have been bore by both sides. #1 is the industry turmoil that's gone on since 1978 and deregulation. We've seen tons of airlines go poof and it's as if we have members who think we have the plan to do something that's never been tried before and that we have the solution to all of those forces we were up against for the last 35 years (2012 with merger mania finished now is where things should start to roll finally in our direction) I think it was pretty conceited of some to think that anything we might have in our minds wasn't tried before? And yes that even includes AMFA who threw the Hail Mary at NWA that no one helped them with. (Different conversation) On the other hand maybe those in leadership in the TWU weren't able to truly convey what they were up against even if in their own minds they did? (I'm speculating) Now though any way you cut it this is the past.

On the COPE paragraph and conversation I have a lot to learn. I'm willing to give it a shot though and have heard some good things about future initiatives. But I also understand that there are limited resources and what resources there are different groups are trying to get a hold of for their issues. We do need to be aware of each others issues within the TWU and sometimes they do conflict with one another and that's when it becomes difficult to lend support if we're chopping off our own finger to give it. Jockeying for a position on prioritizing our issues with limited capital is a difficulty and I think once the JCBA is ratified there has to be a stronger push to get COPE donations so we can say with the resources we bring to the table our issues demand to be at the forefront. Otherwise even if you have been disappointing in the progress I'm glad that you're still involved.

Your third paragraph now that's a tricky one. (This is all just my opinion) It also goes a bit into your first paragraph. It seems that both sides, the TWU leaders and the mechanics have lost trust in each other. I know yes, they work for us. But the reality is that we're all just people at the end of the day and if people get burned they're not likely to want to put out there hand just to have it slapped down again. To touch on one thing, nothing personal to Sean but yes you absolutely should have a maintenance guy in the ATD. Back to trust though. Who out there get's it or is just wearing a trenchcoat with a micro-cassette recorder wired to the chest? Yes you are labeled a closet AMFA supporter. Can you really blame people for thinking that? You always respond when questioned on here with a pat answer "I,m for the members" and all it is is a duck and cover that you're riding a surfboard and will go in whatever direction the wave will take you. (Again IMO) You and I both know that there are closet AMFA supporters in leadership positions right now and to pretend there are not is insulting to the intelligence. So yes Harry, John and Alex have there work cut out for them for how they work with and for you guys moving forward. Maybe some of you guys need to give them a shot too and at least poke a hole in that wall that's up? 

There's no easy solution and I know I'll get wacked again for this comment but I don't think the AMFA seed is going to take root and after May 15 they're going to be stuck with the TWU (and by proxy the Association) They can spend the rest of their carreers after that rebelling and passing it down the ladder to future generations or they can get in the face and force the change they want and deserve from the inside. Yea maybe you've tried it before too many times to count but so what, keep going and don't stop being persistent.

And Bob seriously get away from NYC once in awhile and get the feel of how other Locals and their members think. You're never going to change their minds if you have no clue how they think.    

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

and have random drug testing as well. That too would weed out quite a few people. 

The company can already do random drug test.
 
I thought the comment was funny though.
 
It would WEED out a few people already WEEDED out.
 
What about Colorado?

 

[Kev3188]

My bad Kev. So if I'm correct in the things certain individuals have told me this is the DL ramp in a nutshell. 35% Ready Reserve PT,  30% regular scale PT and 35% regular scale FT? Insane Medical and Prescription costs that deduct substantially from the Profit Sharing doled out into one pocket and taken out of the other for costs incurred if you have issues medically that need attention? Not to mention the Dental plan as well that barely pays out anything?
Can you add other items to make this a more well rounded light shed?

It's quite a laundry list, but before one ticks off the boxes, it's important to know that all policies are prefaced with the language that they can be "changed at any time, for any reason."

Also important to note that DL bases its policies on GA. state law, which are some of the most anti-worker in the nation...