TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

WeAAsles

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Kev3188 said:
I just did what the TOS base is right now. UAs top out will increase a couple of more times over the life of their CBA, as will AS'... I did not include shift differential, longevity, or length of time to get to the top at any given carrier.

Precision isn't needed for the point I think AANOTOK was trying to make.

Now if we start working on that averaging again that's a different story entirely.
 

AANOTOK

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WeAAsles said:
$23.00 is the BASE. .30 cents is the max longevity. UA is $24.60 with a max longevity of .75 cents.

Oh and WN, UAL and DL have shift differential that's not 1, 2 and 3 cents.
So in reality, we are even further back in total compensation to our peers when looking at the whole package.
 

WeAAsles

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AANOTOK said:
So in reality, we are even further back in total compensation to our peers when looking at the whole package.
Only in BASE. We don't want to talk about the SCOPE anymore than the mechanics want to talk about that either.

As individuals though at the moment just like them, yes.
 

AANOTOK

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So bottom line, drop the fleet/peer show and fight for what you feel you deserve...I have no problem with it and
hope you are successful. Half sick pay and no longevity are a couple I agree with you on. I would be just as pissed.
 
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AANOTOK

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WeAAsles said:
Only in BASE. We don't want to talk about the SCOPE anymore than the mechanics want to talk about that either.
True...but holidays/ vacation/ OT/ etc...I'm sure we could mix and match all day long...but yes, no job, nothing else matters.
 
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WeAAsles

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AANOTOK said:
So bottom line, drop the fleet/peer show and fight for what you feel you deserve...I have no problem with it and
hope you are successful. Half sick pay and no longevity are a couple I agree with you on. I would be just as pissed.
I wonder if we had all said no in 03 and let the company rape us in BK back then if these guys wouldn't ***** so much? Our pension check would say PBGC rather than AA if that had happened.
 
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WeAAsles

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AANOTOK said:
True...but holidays/ vacation/ OT/ etc...I'm sure we could mix and match all day long...but yes, no job, nothing else matters.
No job, no nothing but a cardboard box next to the railroad tracks and dumpster diving for stale Twinkies. (Twinkies never go stale)
 
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Buck

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WeAAsles said:
Yea but Buck a lot of people on these boards want to throw Fleet under the bus to say that they aren't being paid what they think they should be and that we have it better than them? The way I read it (And I think I'm off) you guys right now with your license are making a BASE rate of $36.00 per hour or $74,880 per year (Not again including a few other things)

A FSC is cureently making $23.00 or $47,840 per year (Not including a few other things)

Now I'm by far not saying that you don't deserve that or even hope in the future you make more. But you got to be kidding me when you wonder why some of us in Fleet call you guys elitists. Those guys who throw out Fleet to compare themselves looking for a woe is me, you got to be F'en kidding me?
At negotiations there is only so much the company is going to spend. When that pie is divided it seems that TWU is last to ask for a piece and during my career, the mechanic consistently ends up at the lowest of his peers...
 
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WeAAsles

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Buck said:
At negotiations there is only so much the company is going to spend. When that pie is divided it seems that TWU is last to ask for a piece and during my career, the mechanic consistently ends up at the lowest of his peers...
$56.990.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes493011.htm

I guess your peers are only the ones you choose to focus on and not the BLS averages?

It's easy to feel sorry for yourself when you only focus on those you think are more fortunate than you.
 
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Bob Owens

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WeAAsles said:
I wonder if we had all said no in 03 and let the company rape us in BK back then if these guys wouldn't #### so much? Our pension check would say PBGC rather than AA if that had happened.

You seem to forget that not every carrier dumped their pensions into the PBGC. You also seem to forget that we gave up so much in 2003 that everyone else took that as a green light to go back for more. You seem to forget that back in 2003 AA had a Billion in cash when they threatened to file and their claim was that covenants on a Loan they had for $800 million would technically put them in BK if their cash balance dipped below $1 billion. Its doubtful that AA would have been able to dump their pension into the PBGC in 2003 just as they wernt able to do in 2012. Even the expert the TWU hired said you are better off going into BK fat than skinny, we gave AA two bites at the Apple.

Now lets look at the difference between SWA and AA. The difference between a SWA FSC and a AA FSC is around $3/hr, whereas the difference between an AA mech and a SWA mech is closer to $9/hr.

I disagree with Bucks pie theory. The company doesnt get to simply choose the size of the pie they offer labor, thats negotiated. Its up to Labor to say "F%^& You , we need a bigger pie". I also dont agree that the AFL-CIO has a bias against skilled workers, APLA, IBEW, and scores of other craft unions are part of the AFL-CIO. The AFL-CIO is mainly a political lobbying organization.

The claim that our Fleet guys were at or near the top came from both the company and the Union during negotiations. A $3/hr gap from top to bottom is a lot less than a $10hr gap (especially when you take into account thats not really the top). Up until 2003 UPS was also included for comparision, but our weak Union agreed to not include them. UPS does include AA when they negotiate with their mechanics, on top of that AA was just named Air Crago carrier of the year. Its on Jetnet.
 

Bob Owens

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WeAAsles said:
No job, no nothing but a cardboard box next to the railroad tracks and dumpster diving for stale Twinkies. (Twinkies never go stale)

Its sad that you guys feel that you are otherwise unemployable. I think you sell yourselves short. If mechanics said what you are saying about yourselves you would call them elitists.
 

Bob Owens

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WeAAsles said:
^^^^
this
Just wish people could begin to figure it out.
But there is a problem when some people think its either accept whatever the company offers because the alternative is no job and living in a cardboard box next to the RR tracks dumpster diving for twinkies.

I have no problem standing shoulder to shoulder with any worker who is willing to fight for more, I have no use for those who feel they have no choice but to accept the crumbs management has to offer then criticize those that say no, thats unacceptable.
 
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WeAAsles

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Bob Owens said:
You seem to forget that not every carrier dumped their pensions into the PBGC. You also seem to forget that we gave up so much in 2003 that everyone else took that as a green light to go back for more. You seem to forget that back in 2003 AA had a Billion in cash when they threatened to file and their claim was that covenants on a Loan they had for $800 million would technically put them in BK if their cash balance dipped below $1 billion. Its doubtful that AA would have been able to dump their pension into the PBGC in 2003 just as they wernt able to do in 2012. Even the expert the TWU hired said you are better off going into BK fat than skinny, we gave AA two bites at the Apple.


Past history that neither one of us no matter how smart we both think we are know what would have happened. So anything we both say is purely speculative.

Now lets look at the difference between SWA and AA. The difference between a SWA FSC and a AA FSC is around $3/hr, whereas the difference between an AA mech and a SWA mech is closer to $9/hr.

SCOPE Bob, SCOPE. Everything boils down to the entire pie when you make the comparisons. Everything also boils down to financials. SWA never went into BK and AA did or got away with it depending on the point of view.

I disagree with Bucks pie theory. The company doesnt get to simply choose the size of the pie they offer labor, thats negotiated. Its up to Labor to say "F%^& You , we need a bigger pie". I also dont agree that the AFL-CIO has a bias against skilled workers, APLA, IBEW, and scores of other craft unions are part of the AFL-CIO. The AFL-CIO is mainly a political lobbying organization.


If the tree in the backyard really is no longer yeilding any fruit then we really can't expect to be able to pick anything off it. You say that the tree still had fruit and I say that I don't think it had enough to plant seeds with? Who's really correct? 

The claim that our Fleet guys were at or near the top came from both the company and the Union during negotiations. A $3/hr gap from top to bottom is a lot less than a $10hr gap (especially when you take into account that's not really the top). Up until 2003 UPS was also included for comparison, but our weak Union agreed to not include them. UPS does include AA when they negotiate with their mechanics, on top of that AA was just named Air Cargo carrier of the year. Its on Jetnet.

I posted the BLS figures. You can live on a street and compare your house (modest) to the big one down the street but you also can't ignore that the one up the street is much smaller than your's. UPS is your personal litmus for what you want to attain. Nothing wrong with that but don't forget that not everyone works for UPS.
 
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WeAAsles

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Bob Owens said:
Its sad that you guys feel that you are otherwise unemployable. I think you sell yourselves short. If mechanics said what you are saying about yourselves you would call them elitists.
It was a joke Bob. But no I don't have an educational skill-set like the one you have and my employment for what I have learned to do through OJI is not quite the same as what you have. 

I don't have a problem admitting that and absolutely realize that you should be compensated better than me.
 

WeAAsles

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Bob Owens said:
But there is a problem when some people think its either accept whatever the company offers because the alternative is no job and living in a cardboard box next to the RR tracks dumpster diving for twinkies.

You really need to figure out the sense of humor but there "are" people living in cardboard boxes by the side of railroad tracks and it's a shame that we ignore them. I would hope I would never be any steps near that direction but life does have it's way of blindsiding people sometimes.

I have no problem standing shoulder to shoulder with any worker who is willing to fight for more, I have no use for those who feel they have no choice but to accept the crumbs management has to offer then criticize those that say no, that's unacceptable.

And I'm cool with that too. But I also think that certain individuals may have a retarded gene if all they want to do is constantly fight even if they're going to keep getting their arse kicked or should be positive it's going to happen. A smart guy fights when he knows he has a chance of winning. A dumb guy just get's beat up and laughed at by the girl as she's walking away with the guy who gave the beating.