Twu Vs Amfa

[Bob Owens]

Larry...if what you say is true, and I do believe you sir....then change must happen...and it has to start at floor level with floor participation reaching levels seen in the 60's and 70's. Yes times have changed I agree there also...but the only way to fight is in numbers and involvement. I remain firm in my decision to support my friends @ MCI and attempt to light a fire in unionism. I have read pros and cons of the TWU and AMFA till I feel I've overloaded. Would I see changes if AMFA prevails? Bet not without a change of participation. Practicing Unionism is what is lacking at every local as I see it.

You are correct in saying that if we simply change names that we will not see positive changes. Participation is essential. The problem with the current structure is that participation more often than not simply leads to fustration. The current structure is built around the disempowerment of the member. Beyond the local level, where all the real power of the union is concentrated, the members have no input. Jim Little is the master of the blame game. Able to deflect blame like a superhero deflects bulletts, "its Sonny fault", "I dont have a budget", "I dont want a budget", "the AFL-CIO isnt doing anything about it", "the Presidents council did it", "you voted it in", "we had to save jobs", "not on my watch" the members find that there are problems but no way to move towards solutions and no way to hold those with the power to enact solutions accountable. So what we end up with is Locals that see changes but the face of the International staying the same. The International has built a barrier around themselves that keeps them isolated from and unaccountable to the members. Mounting a real challenge to the incumbants is even more difficult than initiating a vote for a new union. Finding dissatisfied members is not that hard and those who could care less about unions altogether will probably not resist the option to boot out whoever is in place. All that is needed for a vote of a new union is to send out cards and try and get just more than half the people to fill them out. While thats not an easy task, its no harder than mounting an internal challenge. Mounting a challenge from within requires being able to get the support of Local level officers who represent many different types of workers in many different industries with many different interests. Many of the officers may see working with the incumbants as a means by which they can permanently escape the shop floor and never face a membership vote or a timeclock again.

The fact is we need to change things first before we can expect the members to become more involved. The dynamics of change are in place. The pressure from AMFA, the Dispatchers filing and now the AGW are all positive elements that can help force those in power to put in changes that we need to have before we can reasonably expect the members to take a real interest. The members have to be given the power to have a real input.

 

[KCFlyer]

The AMFA strategy? You just can't get it through your thick skull that the company lays off employees, not the union! What about all the pilots and flight attendants that got laid off? AMFA's fault too?

Your right...anything negative is ALWAYS the company. I tend to believe what many of the other posters say...those jobs that are lost are lost for good...there will be NOTHING for them to come back to. What about the 38% at NWA who can be laid off so that the company can outsource...Company is the party at fault, right? Even though it's in the contract that was drafted by the AMFA which allowed them to do it.

Do you have any idea how business works? The idea of business is to profit. The idea of unions is to advance and protect PAY AND BENIFITS! Not surrender them for jobs "without further ratification".

I believe I have a better grip on how business works than you do. And you're living in a dream world if you fail to recognize that the AMFA, like the TWU and like American Airlines are, first and foremost, a BUSINESS. Many claim that the TWU is only concerned about dues. If you don't think that AMFA is also concerned about dues, and how they will maintain their "income" with fewer employees, then you are in for a big surprise

How 'bout if we all just take minimum wage and call everyone back and even hire a few thousand more? Is that unionism to you?

As nice as it is to talk about how unions protect wages and benefits, the days of the "sweat shop" are long gone. The pay and benefits for mechanics, even after concessions, is at a rate that is VERY attractive to some. That's called the "free market" - Would you stay if the airline paid you minimum wage? If so, you are a fool. The company will pay what the market will bear - with or without a union. And don't interpret this as me saying "you're overpaid". You're not. Cuts aren't fun, but getting laid off is even less fun. And I believe that the biggest flaw in this "AMFA will save everyone" thought is that you all assume that there will be jobs to return to. The number of jobs to return to would be minimal, IMHO.

What will you do if the company comes back for more consessions and Sonny and Jim surrender them for your own good? Without further ratification. :angry:
Do you think you'll ever stand up for what's right?

My friend, I have stood up more times than you...when I felt the company was screwing me over...I left. I found employment elsewhere with a pay increase. I did not stick around and #### and moan because somebody else was giving away my pay and benefits.

Just remember, one day, if your damn lucky it'll be you on the top of the seniority list. How will you really feel about having pay and benifits TAKEN from you to save the job of a relatively new hire? Be honest.

As I am not in a union, I do not concern myself with my "seniority".

Oh wait. I just realized, you're the one who claims to just be an interested onlooker. Not an employee. Is that right? Well if so, and I know that's B.S., as they say in England...Sod off :down:

You're right, I'm not an employee. I am viewing things from what I like to refer to as the "real world"... a world where a lot of folks would really think that they struck gold if they had even the REDUCED pay and benefits of an AA mechanic.

and I must comment on this:

Uhhh...I believe its called OVERTIME at the other airlines. Or do you forget what double time and a half on HOLIDAYS used to be?
I figured you for a dumbass, but WOW you're really lost aren't you?
And I'll bet those airlines don't work their overhaul mechanics on those holidays. Line maint. always worked those holidays for OVERTIME
WAKE UP!!!

You only picked up on the overtime part, and conveniently overlooked the OTHER industries I cited, where the employees used to have the day off, but now work on holidays and Sundays at straight time. Just trying to point that out as you tried your flag waving "God Bless America" style of post to drive your point home. Or are those who work in other industries and had to work straight time on Memorial day not true Americans? Finally - as far as the name calling (which in my book usually indicates a last resort from the losing side of a debate), I can only say that it takes one to know one.

 

[Hopeful]

KCFlyer:

Since you have stated that:


believe I have a better grip on how business works than you do. And you're living in a dream world if you fail to recognize that the AMFA, like the TWU and like American Airlines are, first and foremost, a BUSINESS. Many claim that the TWU is only concerned about dues. If you don't think that AMFA is also concerned about dues, and how they will maintain their "income" with fewer employees, then you are in for a big surprise.

I find it interesting that you have any opinion on unions (since you are not a union member) and defend the TWU.

Yes, you are right on one issue, unions are businesses. But the TWU is a bus drivers union who caters to the masses. AMFA is made up of masses of mechanics. that's whats important here. I never read any of your opinions on the pilots' unions, APA or ALPA, being comprised of pilots ONLY!

I expect any management to be as profitable as they can for their shareholders. No one argues that. But you have to expect that unions should be as profitable as they can for their members and not sell them out with for the company.

This country is becoming primarily a service oriented nation with WALMART being the largest corporate employer paying low wages and being the most profitable. So by your reasoning, it is better to have everyone working for less than less working for more.

 

[KCFlyer]

KCFlyer:

Since you have stated that:


believe I have a better grip on how business works than you do. And you're living in a dream world if you fail to recognize that the AMFA, like the TWU and like American Airlines are, first and foremost, a BUSINESS. Many claim that the TWU is only concerned about dues. If you don't think that AMFA is also concerned about dues, and how they will maintain their "income" with fewer employees, then you are in for a big surprise.

I find it interesting that you have any opinion on unions (since you are not a union member) and defend the TWU.

In a past life, I was in a union (Teamsters)...mostly because I was required to join the union. Even then, I failed to see exactly what the union got for me, except I couldn't help but notice that every time we got a "COLA" increase, my union dues increased by pretty much exactly the same amount as this increase. And I am not really defending the TWU -only pointing out that the AMFA is really not going to be much different than any other union, especially after they reap the "low hanging fruit" of the disgruntled mechanics at the major airlines. While they are able to keep that income stream up with the influx of new members, what happens when NWA,SWA,UAL,AA, and all the other "major" airlines become a part of AMFA? Then the great influx of money slows to a trickle, and as more and more members are laid off (yes-by the company RUM), and less union dues are coming in, what will the AMFA do...wholesale increases accross the board from their members, or might they start looking at a "jobs first" strategy. Or will they be able to sucker a laid off employee to keep paying his union dues so that he's got those "callback rights" that the union has fought for? If a mechanic was making $60k a year and now he's laid off and takes a job paying $25k a year, don't you think he might find some more uses for those union dues that he's paying to a union representing employees at a company he doesn't work for - like food and rent?

Yes, you are right on one issue, unions are businesses. But the TWU is a bus drivers union who caters to the masses. AMFA is made up of masses of mechanics. that's whats important here. I never read any of your opinions on the pilots' unions, APA or ALPA, being comprised of pilots ONLY!

If AMFA is by and for mechanics, how come they cover cleaners at NWA and janitors at Alaska? Are cleaners and janitors better than busdrivers because they happen to clean for an airline? As far as I know, the pilots unions really do cover pilots. If you point me to any union...ALPA,APA,SWAPA, or any other pilot union that also covers employees other than what they claim to represent, I will be the first to tell you I was mistaken.

I expect any management to be as profitable as they can for their shareholders. No one argues that. But you have to expect that unions should be as profitable as they can for their members and not sell them out with for the company.

Believe it or not, I am friends with several union folks - even some at airlines. And some of them, while they truly want their employer to be profitable for the shareholder, would also be completely happy if that "profit" were just a dollar. Unfortunatly, shareholders want more of a profit than that. And that's why many shareholders would like for labor to have a bigger stake in the company than just a paycheck. In a perfect world all excess profits would be spread amongst all the employees. But it isn't a perfect world, at airlines a good chunk of any profits need to be retained to allow them to update the fleet. And managment (the airlines are not unique in this) will be rewarded -even in failure. Ain't right, ain't fair, and won't be solved by replacing one union with another.

This country is becoming primarily a service oriented nation with WALMART being the largest corporate employer paying low wages and being the most profitable. So by your reasoning, it is better to have everyone working for less than less working for more.

Everybody likes to point to Walmart. Not to knock anyone who works for Walmart, but do you think their education level equals that of an auto mechanic, aircraft mechanic, banker or lawyer? You have skills as a mechanic that the market DOES value - that's why, despite the "poverty level" comments that I often read (if you'd like to see real poverty level, I'd invite you to come to my work and watch our clientele), the market pays considerably more for that skill than they do for the skills of a Walmart stocker.

As far as your comments about everyone working for less...maybe you are right - those who aren't working at Walmart or Home Depot (because they are waiting for that call back that, IMHO, will never come) are taking jobs from those who are less skilled and therefore require the assitance of the state to survive. In that case - those that are working are paying more in the long run to support those who are not working at all.

 

[_AMT_MCI]

I'm not a learned man when it comes to economy and business...but look at the trend our country and industries are going...We are bringing other countries inline with our economy with NAFTA...problem being...to get this field level we are taking a beating to lower our standard and raise theirs. Seems to me at this rate we will have no middle class and business will flourish by not having to pay a benefit schedule to the working class...every day ya hear of cost of prescriptions going up and our coverage going down....no matter who's union is intact where gents we are taking a whooping!!

Not sure of the solution but it would be nice to see some of our higher echelon union bosses lead and direct across the country in all trade fields in mass. Instead of slamming each other's unions would be nice to see some togetherness and scare the H out of management!...just a thought...SC

 

[Hopeful]

KCFlyer:

For starters, the industry does NOT value mechanics' skills! Airline management looks to strip us of a decent wage. Only when an aircraft goes down due to a mechanical error, does the value of what a mechanic is responsible for come into play. One of the main reasons the government requires an Airframe and Powerplant License is not only for regulation'sake, but for liability. When a mechanics screws up and it causes either an accident or a flight interuption that the FAA gets involved in, they say.."There's the mechanic, he's responsible" and they wash their hands in the blame game. All the responsibility put on the shoulders of the aircraft mechanic gets he or she a starting salary of shameful rates whether it be in general or commercial aviation. On the top end, the salary of an aircraft mechanic in commercial aviation pales in comparison to the seasoned auto mechanic at ANY dealership.

On the issue about AMFA covering cleaners at NWA, their numbers are miniscule in comparison to the mechanics.

One thing you have to realize is that we cannot change the system of the TWU. They keep the majority of the TULSA people happy. Why this is a factor is because all Jim Little has ever needed was TULSA and its local president's ROLL CALL VOTE of over 8000 mechanics strong to pass any contract or any other issue presented to the President's Council. These are people in a relatively cheap place to live paying no where for homes and taxes like those in NY, SFO, LAX, or ORD have to pay.

This is the main reason we are unhappy with the TWU. The TWU does not value the skills of its mechanics because we have been repeatedly told "what makes you mechanics so special? We all pay the same for a loaf of bread."

I pay the same for a loaf of bread that a neurosurgeon or heart surgeon pays!
Will I ever see a few hundred thousand dollars a year? Not the same, is it?

Our discontent with the TWU is about mechanics in general being the minority in this union and it's about line mechanics being an even smaller minority when compared to the TULSA folks who don't have a clue what its like to live in a high cost area!

 

[j7915]

I'm not a learned man when it comes to economy and business...but look at the trend our country and industries are going...We are bringing other countries inline with our economy with NAFTA...problem being...to get this field level we are taking a beating to lower our standard and raise theirs. Seems to me at this rate we will have no middle class and business will flourish by not having to pay a benefit schedule to the working class...every day ya hear of cost of prescriptions going up and our coverage going down....no matter who's union is intact where gents we are taking a whooping!!

Not sure of the solution but it would be nice to see some of our higher echelon union bosses lead and direct across the country in all trade fields in mass. Instead of slamming each other's unions would be nice to see some togetherness and scare the H out of management!...just a thought...SC

If the union bosses really led and advocated pressures on companies that export jobs, would you follow?

I work with people every day that claim to be good union men better americans, but they also stop at WalMart twice a day. The idea of not buying something because it is not made in the USA is akin to asking them to starve their children and deprive themselves of their God given right to consume.

The hunt is always for the cheapest so that there are more items in the shopping basket, rather than maybe buying with an eye for quality and less stuff.

The unions have supported the party more likely to protect workers, and what have they gotten for their efforts? 60% of union members vote conservative, ask RV4 for reason why, I am getting tired and bored with restating the obvious every other months.

Re-elect Dubya, he returned honor and decency to the White House, I guess.

 

[j7915]

On the issue about AMFA covering cleaners at NWA, their numbers are miniscule in comparison to the mechanics.

One thing you have to realize is that we cannot change the system of the TWU. They keep the majority of the TULSA people happy. Why this is a factor is because all Jim Little has ever needed was TULSA and its local president's ROLL CALL VOTE of over 8000 mechanics strong to pass any contract or any other issue presented to the President's Council. These are people in a relatively cheap place to live paying no where for homes and taxes like those in NY, SFO, LAX, or ORD have to pay.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe the unions need to start having two executive chambers, like the US Congress.

Do you think I will support one local one vote, when I am in a local that comprises almost 50% of the dues being paid?

Start pushing for local pay differential and I'll vote for it. The problem is it always seems to degenerate into a let Tulsa or AFW give up pay. Maybe you need to consider that doing anything except line/gate maintenance is just too expensive in NYC?

 

[Hopeful]

No one is advocating TUL or AFW to give up pay just for the line stations. But maybe regional pay might be the answer. Not all line stations are in high cost areas.

 

[Bob Owens]

Will I ever see a few hundred thousand dollars a year?

Well if you go for one of those jobs at the"International" you might!

 

[Bob Owens]

Maybe the unions need to start having two executive chambers, like the US Congress.

Do you think I will support one local one vote, when I am in a local that comprises almost 50% of the dues being paid?

Start pushing for local pay differential and I'll vote for it. The problem is it always seems to degenerate into a let Tulsa or AFW give up pay. Maybe you need to consider that doing anything except line/gate maintenance is just too expensive in NYC?

Well I offered a different approach. Well if you think about it, its the same, only the Presidents council would be like the Senate and the membership would be the House of Representatives under certain conditions.

One Local one vote but if 25% of the quorum calls for it, the decision goes for a membership vote.

This would prevent the big OH stations from having complete control over the council and the hassle of the membership vote would encourage compromise. If the OH bases feel that they are being ramrodded they can get their members to vote down what the line stations propose. This would lead to a more realistic balance of power than the current policies where you have one local that can dictate to all the others.

By the way your dues rate is the same as everyone elses.

As far as just doing gate maint in NYC the fact is that doing B-cks, SICs and minor mods is very cost effective because such items can be accomplished without losing revenue. LGA operations are extremely efficient. Kind of borrows from the SWA model. A broken airplane does not automatically mean lost revenue. Trips are simply swapped for as long as it takes to fix the problem. Besides that decision is not ours anyway.

 

[Hopeful]

For me to get one of those "international" jobs, I would have to sell out the membership! I gues I won't be seeing the big bucks anytime soon!

 

[RUM@AA]

The AMFA strategy? You just can't get it through your thick skull that the company lays off employees, not the union! What about all the pilots and flight attendants that got laid off? AMFA's fault too?

Your right...anything negative is ALWAYS the company. I tend to believe what many of the other posters say...those jobs that are lost are lost for good...there will be NOTHING for them to come back to. What about the 38% at NWA who can be laid off so that the company can outsource...Company is the party at fault, right? Even though it's in the contract that was drafted by the AMFA which allowed them to do it.

The point you've missed is that NWA pre AMFA had NO OUTSOURCE LIMIT in their contract. So, post AMFA, now that there is a limit, that is the cause of outsourcing? That makes no sense. Pre AMFA the limit was 100%, why didn't the company just outsource 100%?
It's the business climate, not the contract language. Get it?


Do you have any idea how business works? The idea of business is to profit. The idea of unions is to advance and protect PAY AND BENIFITS! Not surrender them for jobs "without further ratification".

I believe I have a better grip on how business works than you do. And you're living in a dream world if you fail to recognize that the AMFA, like the TWU and like American Airlines are, first and foremost, a BUSINESS. Many claim that the TWU is only concerned about dues. If you don't think that AMFA is also concerned about dues, and how they will maintain their "income" with fewer employees, then you are in for a big surprise

Wait a minute. First its AMFA laid off 50% of its members at NWA. Now their only concerned about dues. Which is it? If they were only concerned about dues they surly would have surrendered pay and benifits to save jobs. You can't have it both ways.

How 'bout if we all just take minimum wage and call everyone back and even hire a few thousand more? Is that unionism to you?

As nice as it is to talk about how unions protect wages and benefits, the days of the "sweat shop" are long gone. The pay and benefits for mechanics, even after concessions, is at a rate that is VERY attractive to some. That's called the "free market" - Would you stay if the airline paid you minimum wage? If so, you are a fool. The company will pay what the market will bear - with or without a union. And don't interpret this as me saying "you're overpaid". You're not. Cuts aren't fun, but getting laid off is even less fun. And I believe that the biggest flaw in this "AMFA will save everyone" thought is that you all assume that there will be jobs to return to. The number of jobs to return to would be minimal, IMHO.

No, AMFA won't save everyone, and I don't know where you get that. Of all the things AMFA may or may not be, the main point is they are not the TWU. Pilots have their own union, Flight Attendants have their own union, Mechanics should have thier own union. PERIOD. Skilled Mechanics are sick and tired of supplementing the pay of unskilled baggage handlers and stock clerks. Did you know that AA offered to outsource a large percentage of Fleet Service to save the pay and benifits of Mechanics, and the TWU said NO WAY! Because they are the majority. And because fleet service is the majority they get what they want. I don't have a problem with them getting the most they can, as long as it is not at the expense of my profession.

What will you do if the company comes back for more consessions and Sonny and Jim surrender them for your own good? Without further ratification.
Do you think you'll ever stand up for what's right?

My friend, I have stood up more times than you...when I felt the company was screwing me over...I left. I found employment elsewhere with a pay increase. I did not stick around and #### and moan because somebody else was giving away my pay and benefits.

Do we know each other? We're not friends and you have no idea what I've endured in my lifetime just as I don't know or care about you or yours.
I can't go find employment elsewhere because I'm an AMT. And this cancer called industrial unionism is destroying my profession. Anywhere I go, this problem will follow, unless people like me stand and fight and stop it now.

Just remember, one day, if your damn lucky it'll be you on the top of the seniority list. How will you really feel about having pay and benifits TAKEN from you to save the job of a relatively new hire? Be honest.

As I am not in a union, I do not concern myself with my "seniority".

When you earn your living with your muscles as well as your intellect, younger stronger applicants become very appealing to your employer. Seniority is what keeps us employed and keeps us from being laid off just because were not as limber or strong as we used to be. Fix airplanes for 25 years and you'll damn sure wear out your back, knees and just about every other joint in your body. This is after all, why we unionize. Because we can't trust our employer to do right by us after all those years.

Oh wait. I just realized, you're the one who claims to just be an interested onlooker. Not an employee. Is that right? Well if so, and I know that's B.S., as they say in England...Sod off

You're right, I'm not an employee. I am viewing things from what I like to refer to as the "real world"... a world where a lot of folks would really think that they struck gold if they had even the REDUCED pay and benefits of an AA mechanic.

Even with 25 years experience in the industry? 18 years with one company? So if their are "a lot of folks" that would do my job for $10 and hour, thats what I should be happy to get?
The bottom line is that some companies are getting unlicensed mechanics, car mechanics, truck mechanics, boat mechanics etc. to fix aircraft and paying them truck and car mechanic wages and that's real attractive to the airlines who outsource the work to them. But is that what you want to fly on? Do you feel safe knowing that the planes you're flying on were fixed by unlicensed mechanics?

and I must comment on this:

Uhhh...I believe its called OVERTIME at the other airlines. Or do you forget what double time and a half on HOLIDAYS used to be?
I figured you for a dumbass, but WOW you're really lost aren't you?
And I'll bet those airlines don't work their overhaul mechanics on those holidays. Line maint. always worked those holidays for OVERTIME
WAKE UP!!!

You only picked up on the overtime part, and conveniently overlooked the OTHER industries I cited, where the employees used to have the day off, but now work on holidays and Sundays at straight time. Just trying to point that out as you tried your flag waving "God Bless America" style of post to drive your point home. Or are those who work in other industries and had to work straight time on Memorial day not true Americans? Finally - as far as the name calling (which in my book usually indicates a last resort from the losing side of a debate), I can only say that it takes one to know one.

I'm not talking about other industries. I don't care about other industries. This an AIRLINE forum. We're talking about airlines. It would be ok with me if the whole country shut down for Memorial Day.
The airlines have always been a sort of extension of the military. Many, Many ,Many of the pilots and mechanics at the airlines have a military background and for us to be FORCED, "without further ratification", to work straight time, on our military's most sacred national holiday is UNACCEPTABLE. And rest assured, you'll never hear me appologize for waving the flag. Maybe you have a problem with it, but I don't.
As far as winning or losing the debate, that is decided by the other viewers of the forum, not you or me.

 

[j7915]

Maybe the unions need to start having two executive chambers, like the US Congress.

Do you think I will support one local one vote, when I am in a local that comprises almost 50% of the dues being paid?

Start pushing for local pay differential and I'll vote for it. The problem is it always seems to degenerate into a let Tulsa or AFW give up pay. Maybe you need to consider that doing anything except line/gate maintenance is just too expensive in NYC?

Well I offered a different approach. Well if you think about it, its the same, only the Presidents council would be like the Senate and the membership would be the House of Representatives under certain conditions.

One Local one vote but if 25% of the quorum calls for it, the decision goes for a membership vote.

This would prevent the big OH stations from having complete control over the council and the hassle of the membership vote would encourage compromise. If the OH bases feel that they are being ramrodded they can get their members to vote down what the line stations propose. This would lead to a more realistic balance of power than the current policies where you have one local that can dictate to all the others.

By the way your dues rate is the same as everyone elses.

As far as just doing gate maint in NYC the fact is that doing B-cks, SICs and minor mods is very cost effective because such items can be accomplished without losing revenue. LGA operations are extremely efficient. Kind of borrows from the SWA model. A broken airplane does not automatically mean lost revenue. Trips are simply swapped for as long as it takes to fix the problem. Besides that decision is not ours anyway.

With the internet, and telephone voting you may be on the track to a viable concept. After all we are only talking 15k people, who all claim to be well educated in the matters affecting them