U.S. Pilot Labor Thread 9/28 - 10/05

[Phoenix]

Supposedly; 20 year fences, east gets all the upgrades but they hope to make the west feel better by letting us have all the furloughs!

How typical of fo bradford and crew.

"20 year fences, east gets all the upgrades"



That wins.... oxymoron of the year.

 

[traderjake]

Hopefully the facts will convince the reasonable majority in the West that they may be able to live with this compromise list.

We're here to steal your job.........hopefully the reasonable majority in the West may be able to live with this.

Dream on.

 

[cleardirect]

OK! Where is it? Where is this fantastic list that is going to making stapling 80% of the west pilots good for us?

What are the conditions and restrictions that will make it all OK?

 

[Phoenix]

We're here to steal your job.........

The rumored "20 year fence" would indicate otherwise. But then why bother waiting to read what the terms actually are... when it is far easier to declare "The grapes are surely sour".

 

[Megasnoop]

How proud the self appointed leaders must be today. Ironically, today is the day that several West pilots are getting furloughed OUT OF SENIORITY. No problem for USAPA, no grievance filed by "the union". No mention of this fact in any update thus far. Why?

The Hypocrisy is shining so bright Stevie Wonder would have to shade his eyes.

First, Res, Im not sure the reason for the inane Stevie wonder reference. very poor taste. Second, until theres a single list, furloughs are by the two current contract seniority lists. Looks like the company followed the rules. Third, grievances arent filed on TA issues, only disputes which go immediately to an arbitrator. Fourth, your Macalvana DID file a grievance and USAPA is going to follow up on it, even though theyre actually TA disputes and not contract grievances, except in Macalvanas grandstanding mind. If we didnt, we could be DFRed on that, even though Macalvana doesnt even pay agency fee. USAPA, in the time limits prescribed in your contract, will take Macalvanas grievances all the way through the process. How long does it normally take you to get to arbitration in a non-termination case? Six months? One year? Fifth, Im not sure why USAPA has any obligation to update on the Macalvana grievance until the company actually denies it at the VP level and USAPA agrees to take it to SBA. Last, AOL is mad over Macalvanas grievances. Your former hero made it easier for a judge to say let the union grievance process solve the furlough issue, not a lawsuit or request for an injunction. THANKS Mr. Macalvana! But lets see, Res, furloughs have already gone out and no injunction? All that high-dollar legal expertise and they cant even get a simple injunction? Maybe theres no grounds for one, ya think?

Yes, it will be interesting to see how "conditions & restrictions" protect the west from furlough, something that was absent at AWA prior to the merger. DOH, without "conditions & restrictions" to specifically prevent it, would allow an east pilot to insulate himself from furlough and instead, force it upon a west pilot. A windfall that would allow the east to sacrafice the west, purely as the result of the merger and not where the east's career expectations were heading prior to the merger!

Jet, a strong company balance sheet protects you from furlough. So does forcing the company to abide by the terms of the TA. The company is in violation of the max RJ numbers (on the East) and the max reduction in block hours (on the West). Weve got solid cases for winning disputes on both.

Once the furloughs are in place, no "conditions & restrictions" are going to undo them. Only wins in the two disputes will do that. Sending money to your attorneys might make you feel good, but its just money down a rat hole.

BTW, you need to get off that DOH without "conditions and restrictions." USAPA has made clear that wont happen. And since USAPA has stated there will be conditions and restrictions, they better follow through, or even the Snooper will vote no. The Snooper ( - - - - - - - - - - - - - )

 

[electricjet98]

The rumored "20 year fence" would indicate otherwise. But then why bother waiting to read what the terms actually are... when it is far easier to declare "The grapes are surely sour".

So please tell us; what mergers & conditions will save west pilots from the furloughs that the east pilots brought to the merger?

 

[electricjet98]

Jet, a strong company balance sheet protects you from furlough. So does forcing the company to abide by the terms of the TA.

That helps. But the east feels like nothing is better than an "ace up the sleeve"; like having a few hunderd west pilots that brought jobs to this merger be made furlough fodder for a few hunderd east pilots that brought nothing to the merger.

BTW, you need to get off that DOH without "conditions and restrictions." USAPA has made clear that wont happen. And since USAPA has stated there will be conditions and restrictions, they better follow through, or even the Snooper will vote no. The Snooper ( - - - - - - - - - - - - - )

Oh, they'll have conditions and restrictions. But nothing to protect the west from the furloughs which the east brought with them.

 

[nic4us]

Wow! We went almost 36 hours without a post (whine/rant) on this thread. That must be a record.

I would have posted sooner but I read a summary of the BPR conference call dated 9-25-08 and just stopped laughing.

Regarding Al Hemenway....." Hemmingway is attempting...simply stated, it is not his job to interpret our constitution, his job is to enforce the contracts we all agreed to." E. Hemmingway won the Nobel prize for literature, wrote "Winner Take Nothing" and died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. E. Allen Hemenway is VP of labor relations, and your boss. It most certainly is at his discretion to interpret your CBLs when you are attempting to have an employee terminated, but if nothing else you should at least spell his name correctly. Cannot wait until the company does enforce some contracts we all agreed to. But on the topic of non dues payers, we on the west just heard USAPA is going after four delinquent east pilots. Let me guess, one of them is the vetran from SAN who stood up at the CLT crewroom meeting and slammed USAPA's VP.

Regarding the Cactus call sign....."the Beavis and Butthead braintrust in Tempe."
hu..hahhu.huh..hu..huh.hu......he thsaid "Global Identifier."
no.no.nono.no..no.......he said "AWE"..as in aawwww lets all cry about it.

Megasnoop,

thanks for posting the update. You are correct I had not seen it. Problem is it was Item Two: and when I read USAPA updates I seldom get past, Item One:"something else the west could care less about that is a huge injustice for the east and aviation in general will not survive unless we the gallant east fix the gross injustice." At least that is how the read from my perspective.

You are correct though, an arbitrated decision may be faster than a legal battle and I hope for a favorable decision from arbitrator Block. Perhaps something good just in time for the holidays. It may come too late for the 50 or so furloughs who lost employment today, and the 50 or so more going in November. Do you still have new hires working out east?

EastUs,

Im not sure what you are saying. What I attempted to say was there was no point in there ever being a Wye River meeting. A compromise was already made in binding arbitration, Wye River was not an attempt at compromise, it was an ALPA attempt at cramming down something on the West.

Now we shall see what USAPA attempts as a cramdown on the West with their conditions and restrictions. But I will say it again for those who missed it the first time. I was prepared for the results of the arbitration, and I could have accepted DOH had it been the outcome of that third party decision. However, I will not accept a onesided decision made by USAPA, regardless of its content.

 

[nic4us]

megasnoop,

a stong company balance sheet protects you from furlough until your company buys a defunct airline with pilots who all seem to think their expectaions were better than yours.

 

[traderjake]

The rumored "20 year fence" would indicate otherwise. But then why bother waiting to read what the terms actually are... when it is far easier to declare "The grapes are surely sour".

Why don't you try thinking this through?

Are 20 year fences going to prevent 1000 West pilots being furloughed before the first East pilot?

If fences are the cure all would you object to the Nic Award with fences?

 

[Megasnoop]

Megasnoop, thanks for posting the update. You are correct I had not seen it. Problem is it was Item Two: and when I read USAPA updates I seldom get past, Item One:"something else the west could care less about that is a huge injustice for the east and aviation in general will not survive unless we the gallant east fix the gross injustice." At least that is how the read from my perspective.

Nic4, always glad to help, but sorry to burst your bubble. Item 1 in that update addressed "the Electronic Flight Bag. The full text of the update is available in the Safety Committee section of the web site," not the nonsense you made up and put in "quotes."

You are correct though, an arbitrated decision may be faster than a legal battle and I hope for a favorable decision from arbitrator Block. Perhaps something good just in time for the holidays. It may come too late for the 50 or so furloughs who lost employment today, and the 50 or so more going in November. Do you still have new hires working out east?

Bloch, not "Block." He is a DOH kind of guy, but he wont be ruling on the seniority list. Only on the injustice of illegal furloughs by the company. Violating the RJ max numbers (East) and the reduced block hours (West). Second, if we still have new-hires working here, theyll be gone in short order. But with wins in the 2 disputes, all May 2005 rostered pilots, east or west, should be back at work. Maybe some new-hires too. If only the reduced hours dispute wins, then all May 2005 pilots should be back. If only the RJ dispute wins, Im not so sure, since the company might just dump some of the service performed by the 17 illegal RJs. In any case, with east vacation days at west levels in the new contract, that alone will end furloughs for both sides for all May 2005 pilots. But I guess you guys would rather delay implementation of a new contract and have your hail-mary shot at winning the Nic war rather than get everyone back. Selfish way of operating, but were used to that from your side.

EastUs, Im not sure what you are saying. What I attempted to say was there was no point in there ever being a Wye River meeting. A compromise was already made in binding arbitration, Wye River was not an attempt at compromise, it was an ALPA attempt at cramming down something on the West.

Nic4, the Wye River LOS was a last ditch attempt by ALPO to save the mother ship. They did the polling and they knew with LOS they might survive. So my hats off to your team for hanging tough. Otherwise, USAPA would have lost and we still be dealing with ALPO. And youd be legitimately DFRing the mother ship for violating its own rules and policies. Wed both be hating ALPO, but for diffrnt reasons.

Now we shall see what USAPA attempts as a cramdown on the West with their conditions and restrictions. But I will say it again for those who missed it the first time. I was prepared for the results of the arbitration, and I could have accepted DOH had it been the outcome of that third party decision. However, I will not accept a onesided decision made by USAPA, regardless of its content.

Nic4, as long as you dont join, dont pay dues, dont want representation, dont want to vote, how can we be doing a cram-down on you? I fly with enough old guys to know. They dont care about the list any more. Now that ALPOs gone, they want to time warp back to a pre-BK contract. With your 1700 no-votes, plus our old fossils wanting to get everything back and then some, you guys could delay a new contract. We also got enough ALPO-phyles who would vote against a so-so contract just to make USAPA look bad. Combine that unholy alliance and Youd have enough no-votes to drag this thing out until ALPO could get voted back in. And with ALPO back in, whats back in play? The nic. Im glad you guys cant think more than a week ahead. Snooper

 

[exB717Flyer]

AP
Ahead of the Bell: Delta-NWA pilot seniority
Thursday October 2, 6:04 am ET
Arbitration hearings begin over how to integrate Delta-NWA pilot seniority lists

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081002/delta_north..._bell.html?.v=1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeepers, those DL and NWA guys must be crazy to go to arbitration instead of just DOH since everyone knows DOH is the only fair way to integrate two pilot groups. After all, binding isn't really binding when one side doesn't like the results. (read sarcasm)

I wonder, if the Delta guys dump ALPA and try to impose a seniority list on NW would USAPA cheer them on?

 

[nycbusdriver]

AP
Ahead of the Bell: Delta-NWA pilot seniority
Thursday October 2, 6:04 am ET
Arbitration hearings begin over how to integrate Delta-NWA pilot seniority lists

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081002/delta_north..._bell.html?.v=1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeepers, those DL and NWA guys must be crazy to go to arbitration instead of just DOH since everyone knows DOH is the only fair way to integrate two pilot groups. After all, binding isn't really binding when one side doesn't like the results. (read sarcasm)

I wonder, if the Delta guys dump ALPA and try to impose a seniority list on NW would USAPA cheer them on?

The Delta-NWA pilots vehemently rejected ALPA merger policy and are going with a panel of three arbitrators. Why would they do that? Do you honestly believe that the hosing Nicolau gave the USAirways pilots didn't play into this unprecedented decision to soundly turn their backs on ALPA in this transaction?

Interestingly enough, Richard Bloch is one of the arbitrators on their panel. If you get a chance, read Mr. Bloch's arbitration decision regarding the US/AW integration of the dispatchers lists. Both the US and AW dispatchers' sides made virtually the same arguments as those presented to George Nicolau. Arbitrator Bloch, without the burden of dotage, actually came up with a logical, defensible conclusion. It went straight DOH.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Still using that very worn out statement, eastus? Geez! Get some new material!

How about Mr. "We hate you guys" from the recent PHX crew news last month.

New enough for you?

 

[nic4us]

megasnoop,

As we post under pseudonyms it is hard to tell when we are sincere and when we are being flippant. To illustrate this I have commented on two topics below. In the first I am just messing with you, but in the second I am serious.

So there is NO injunction, just an attempt at one. Thanks for the clarification, nic4.



It sounds like hes just Macalvenas personal attorney now. Freund, isnt he the attorney who said the Nic was only a negotiating tool? Hes my hero.



Grievances are filed by individual pilots. Your Macalvena filed one.


Item one:
It is John McIlvenna who filed the grievance, and he is not mine. Freund did not say that, although when taken out of context by U-Turn it may appear that way. But I am glad he is your hero, but I do not think he will be for long. My heros include my father, Harry S. Truman, Pat Tillman, Mae Jemmison, Abraham Lincoln, and the parents of any high school kid possesing manners. So it is plausible you are one of my heros. But then you would have to have a teen with manners, be a female african american astronaut, or be deceased. Possible, but highly unlikely.


Item two:
So it is Bloch not Block, thanks for the correction. Is that the same Richard Bloch who is arbitrating the NW-Delta seniority integration. I would lay odds it will not go DOH. I actually do read USAPA updates but had not read the 9-27-08 update you refer to, and yes so there is no confusion it was just non-sense I made up and put in quotes, I thought that was self-evident. In one update there was talk of an assesment for a merger fund, sorry I will not be contributing, however if you decide to asses to help pay COBRA for furloughs, I am onboard.

Nic4