UAL could outsource a max of 2600 plus jobs

[ThirdSeatHero]

obviously there is bad data there for those years. if you look at the number of personnel in maintenance in 95 and 96, UA said it had 4623 in 95 and then 2135 in 1996. that is why the average salaries are distorted. a year later there were 15K personnel in UA maintenance.

But it doesn't change that the rest of the numbers look very realistic... and the only reason why you and others don't want to accept them is because it doesn't tell the story you want - which is that a union has resulted in higher compensation.

It hasn't.

 
So I give you two examples of outrageous flaws which you don't deny yet you want to cling to the integrity of the study
 
It has inaccuracies there fore is flawed, maybe the reason you won't let it go is because it tells the story you want heard.

 

[700UW]

And the numbers he is using is flawed, it includes passenger service which are not on the same CBAS as the ramp.

 

[WorldTraveler]

now, they are not flawed. DOT data combines workgroups that are not combined at some airlines.

But it is still accurate data.

And regardless of whether it is combined or not, it still shows that DL people have enjoyed the fastest growth in compensation of any airline employees in the US which is what I have said for years.

DL also has not eliminated stations like AA and UA have done.

those are facts which you want to try to deny but cannot.

 

[Kev3188]

 
So I give you two examples of outrageous flaws which you don't deny yet you want to cling to the integrity of the study
 
It has inaccuracies there fore is flawed, maybe the reason you won't let it go is because it tells the story you want heard.

TSH--

Agreed.

Just curious; when you're, say, clearing an MEL, do you do an OPs/function ck, or just assume all is well 'cause it "looks" good?

 

[Kev3188]

now, they are not flawed. DOT data combines workgroups that are not combined at some airlines.

But it is still accurate data.

Not really.

DL also has not eliminated stations like AA and UA have done.

This is patently false.

 

[WorldTraveler]

tell me how many stations DL has eliminated since emerging from BK compared to AA and UA.

the numbers aren't even close to the same.

and while your world revolves around the ramp, DL staffs dozens more stations with its own employees above wing, not DGS or Envoy but Delta Air Lines employees.

and, again, it is no surprise that you and other union supporters want to trash ACTUAL data that shows how much airline employees get in real life and not what is in a CBA that has no real data.

Yes, Kev, it is real data and it shows that DL airport employees are better compensated than their peers at AA and UA and have seen faster growth in compensation than their peers at every other large jet airline in the US.

 

[700UW]

Because DL already whacked stations with Leadership 7.5 and after Chapter 11 DL only had 14 stations to the table, NW brought more and DL didnt close them because they didnt want the union to be voted in.
 
The data isnt correct, it lumps in passenger service, which effects the average.
 
Do you understand that Passenger Service is not in the same class and craft and they are not on the same CBA at UA, US, and at AA they just unionized and dont have a CBA yet?
 
DFW, MCO, MEM, CVG, MSP, TPA, SLC, ANC, and many other stations.

Why is MIA and CLT so large with flights yet they are contracted out?
 
And DL is approaching 40% ready reserve.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't really care what unions represent AA or US employees.

DL employees at the airport earn far more than their peers at AA, UA, or US.

You can't provide ANY data to argue that any AA, UA, or US employee can make more than 20% more than their peers in other airport depts which is what it would take for those employees to bypass DL employees.

the increase in compensation is absolutely accurate, regardless of how badly it hurts for your to admit it.

this is actual DATA, not some IAM PR propaganda which is based on nothing but empty and broken promises.

that is precisely why you hate it.

 

[700UW]

Funny I showed you the FA numbers and AA and WN make more than DL FAs.
 
And AA and US got raises last year and will be getting another in September and will be negotiating a new JCBA shortly.
 
And Scope is worth more than the money.  AA and US get more vacation, holidays the PMUS Ramp have a defined benefit plan, DL does not.  PMUS have better and less costly health insurance.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never have disputed that the AA FAs make more in base salary.

however, when you add the benefits and salary together, the difference comes to less than 2%.

and when you account for the fact that DL has hired thousands more FAs than AA, a difference in 2% means that DL FAs are doing far better than you want to argue.

You can't argue that everything in a scope has value and then try to discredit data which shows that the increased scope which you say AA FAs have doesn't really translate into money.

Either it is worth money or it is not.

DL's benefit package is more valuable than AA's for FAs... and yet AA has the newest CBA in the industry.

You can nitpick over items but at the bottom line, DL employees are better compensated than their peers at AA or UA, and DL employees have seen faster growth in their compensation than any other airline employees.

Being non-union has provided more for DL employees than what their unionized peers at other airlines have gained.

And DL hasn't closed dozens of stations like AA and UA have... and DL still has more stations staffed with its own employees than either AA or UA.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

now, they are not flawed. DOT data combines workgroups that are not combined at some airlines.

But it is still accurate data.

And regardless of whether it is combined or not, it still shows that DL people have enjoyed the fastest growth in compensation of any airline employees in the US which is what I have said for years.

DL also has not eliminated stations like AA and UA have done.

those are facts which you want to try to deny but cannot.

 
 
THE DATA IS INACCURATE - YOU EVEN ADMITTED TO IT LAST NIGHT IN THIS POST
 
 

 
obviously there is bad data there for those years. if you look at the number of personnel in maintenance in 95 and 96, UA said it had 4623 in 95 and then 2135 in 1996. that is why the average salaries are distorted. a year later there were 15K personnel in UA maintenance.

 
How long are you going to keep making it up as you go?

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, I DID NOT say it was inaccurate.

I said it was an average and lumped work groups together that are separate at most unionized US airlines.

What you and every union fankid wants to do is to remove ANY FACTUAL DATA so that you can argue something based on hearsay and innuendo instead.

won't work.

Even if you lump ALL employees together, the data shows that DL employees have seen larger pay raises than their peers at any other US airline.

and specific to FAs, which is universally separated in the data, DL FAs fared better than their peers at NW during BK.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

No, I DID NOT say it was inaccurate.

I said it was an average and lumped work groups together that are separate at most unionized US airlines.

What you and every union fankid wants to do is to remove ANY FACTUAL DATA so that you can argue something based on hearsay and innuendo instead.

won't work.

Even if you lump ALL employees together, the data shows that DL employees have seen larger pay raises than their peers at any other US airline.

and specific to FAs, which is universally separated in the data, DL FAs fared better than their peers at NW during BK.

 
 
From your post last night concerning the average maintenance personnel at UAL making over $300k in 1996
 

 
obviously there is bad data there for those years. if you look at the number of personnel in maintenance in 95 and 96, UA said it had 4623 in 95 and then 2135 in 1996. that is why the average salaries are distorted. a year later there were 15K personnel in UA maintenance.

 
"Bad data" .... "salaries are distorted"
 
"BAD" and "DISTORTED" does not equal accurate.

 

[700UW]

Members in ATL, BIL, IND, MCI, RDU, RNO, RSW, SAT, SJC, SMF, STL, and TUL voted today to accept/reject the modifications to their contracts and retain IAM represented work. Each station determined their own future and was not dependent on the votes of other stations to determine the outcome. A two thirds vote for ratification was required under our contract in order to make any change in wages, benefits, or working conditions.
 
In each station members strongly ratified their tentative agreement.
 
We thank all members in these stations for giving serious consideration to the tentative agreement and making their choice for the future. The participation level of members voting was outstanding and reflected the concern and involvement in every location in their self-determination. We especially appreciate the counsel and advice each station’s representatives provided throughout the negotiation and process. They were professional and compassionate in speaking on behalf of their fellow members and should be very proud of their work.
 
More information will follow regarding the next steps in this process but tonight we want to thank all our members and congratulate them on finding the right way to keep their co-workers at work and at home.
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

there are TWO years worth of nearly 20 year old data that are wrong because UA used the incorrect number of maintenance personnel.

Any one including you can see the error.

that doesn't make the rest of the data inaccurate.

what you don't want to admit - and it is equally obvious - is that the data for the past 5 years, not 20 years ago, shows that DL's non-union employees have enjoyed the highest growth in compensation of any US airline

that data is indisputable even if you want to argue about combined workgroups at the airport.

and since this is a UA thread, comparisons between DL and UA employees show that DL employees are not only higher paid than DL employees in 2013 including for FAs but also that UA employee salaries actually went DOWN in 2013 overall, driven by decreases for FAs and airport ground staff.

so, tell us what argument you are going to use to disprove that data.


thanks, 700,
only the IAM could claim victory for a process that has left hundreds of UA employees forced to move to save their job or to bid for lower pay and benefits in order to keep their jobs at the saem location

the last IAM contract was a disaster. Many people here recognized and said so. and we are now seeing the lives of over 2000 employees affected because of the lack of leadership at the IAM that allowed UA cut millions of dollars in expenses from a contract that was riddled with holes.