Ual Mechs Send A Clear Message

[kcabpilot]

First off: The tentative agreement would have allowed unlimited international outsourcing of maintenance. That means China, Mexico or wherever the CHEAPEST labor could be found. The State Department recently issued a warning that due to security issues it's not safe for Americans to travel to Mexico - but it's okay to have our aircraft worked on there. The mechanics do not trust outsourced maintenance (including domestic outsourcing) and for good reason - because they see and routinely fix the horrendous messes that routinely come out of those facilities. UAL might save a few grand on an outsourced overhaul but end up paying for it on the first C-Check afterwards. Putting off maintenance doesn't save you money, it ends up costing more in the end and -IT'S DANGEROUS.

Secondly: The mechanics have already given a great deal to this management team only to see them piss it down the river with asinine 'business schemes' like TED. We are more than willing to save this airline but the current 'leadership' (if that's what you really want to call it) has ZERO credibility and is not going to get another hand out to continue the status quo.

United's problems are not due to labor. They have a very talented and experienced workforce that they have been squandering due to their tunnel vision fixation on OUTSCOURCING. They believe it's the answer to everything but it hasn't saved them a damned dime and in fact has COST them money. There are simply too many managers sitting in tidy little cubicles on day shift, Monday through Friday producing reams of worthless bar graphs and reports and having meetings and coming up with all sorts of stupid assed ideas on how to save United Airlines. They live in a myopic world, never straying far from the comfort of the cubicle, seeing everything as it appears on a computer screen in the form of a series of PowerPoint slides.

While outside at night, on the weekends, in the rain the mechanics are trying to hold this deteriorating piece of #### together as best they can. Nobody bothers to come out and ask them what they need to get the job done.

Nope - it stops right here, right now. If that means the end of it so be it but it's NOT going to continue on the way it has been. We have real concerns about the state of this industry and the path it's taking and we are stakeholders in it just like everyone else. The mechanics at United have finally drawn the line. Tilton will undoubtably say that our actions aren't in the best interest of United. We say that threatening to abrogate our contracts is not in the best interest of United.

 

[HGIEFOswitch]

Bravo!! I totally agree. It's about time someone stoop up to this pathetic industry spiral. I wish you well in this critical stage. In the worst case scenario, you'll be able to hold you head with some pride and move away from the lame industry. As someone forced to do this, I can assure you there is life on the other side.

 

[E-TRONS]

KCABPILOT:

I commend you for you and your brother mechanics for having the chutzpah to do what is right. Telling the company to stick-it under these circumstances !!

I wish there were more like you at UAIR. I as well as many that I know, voted NO on the POS and YES to STRIKE. Too little too late. There are more sheep out there than I thought. Now we are sitting ducks with God knows what to come??

So sit back and take note of what goes down at UAIR and take careful notes....and it's nothing that you don't already know. Remember that UAL stated that they would "model" UAL's BK after UAIR's.

If you have to take a stand and walk then God bless you and the others willing to take no more of this corporate crap. You will survive because your skills and experience ARE worth something outside of aviation.

I say let them continue to ruin the entire industry until it ultimately collapses :angry: !!! Pity all of the innocent folks who will suffer at the hands of these short sighted robber barons :down: !!!!

Hang tough and be steadfast against this hun that we know of as corporate America. You guys are my heros!!!!!

PEACE B)

 

[jimntx]

Congratulations, AMFA-UAL. As someone who was thrown under the bus for the sake of senior pay rates and spite toward the former TWA flight attendants ('m not one. I was just collateral damage.), I salute any union that has the nerve to say enough is enough.

Actually, it's not really a issue of having the nerve. It's an issue of having the convictions to do what is right and honorable for ALL the members of your union. A concept that the APFA at AA will never understand.

When you start your strike fund account, be sure and post here an address to send donations.

 

[spacewaitress]

UAL might save a few grand on an outsourced overhaul but end up paying for it on...

How about paying for it when the first one drops out of the sky due to a bomb planted on board at one of those outsourcing facilities. The concern isn't just for the maintenance itself, to me. As a crew member (FA), I don't like this maintenance outsourcing one bit.

Don't even bother attempting to convince that it's secure. I guess we'll just deal with the issue of outsourcing maintenance when it happens. Just like every other safety concern in this fracking industry.

The public doesn't want to pay for safety, yet...just whistling in the dark.

 

[Bob Owens]

How about paying for it when the first one drops out of the sky due to a bomb planted on board at one of those outsourcing facilities. The concern isn't just for the maintenance itself, to me. As a crew member (FA), I don't like this maintenance outsourcing one bit.

[post="243736"][/post]​

That was one of the things that we pointed out a few years back. Todays airplanes are huge machines with lots of compartments that mechanics on the line only access if there is a known problem where we have to go in them. Many of these compartments are huge and its not just bombs, that could be easily hid in any of them and set to go off by time delay or barometric cycles, but other hidden things that could be done with things like mercury or even a graphite pencil or other corrosives that could result in catastrophic failure. With the extended maintenance cycles that the airlines have been putting into effect even non-intentional damage could go unnoticed until its too late. Its scary. These guys are playing Russian roulette with your lives. Then on top of that, while saying its safe, they lobby for legislation limiting liablity for wrongful death suits.

I wanted the AFL-CIO to make and air a commercial set in some third world country maintenance facility where they superimpose Bin Ladens face on a mechanic installing a component on a US Airliner with a caption reading "Who was working on your airplane?" to send a message to the public, but I guess they felt it was too radical.

 

[UAL_TECH]

First off: The tentative agreement would have allowed unlimited international outsourcing of maintenance. That means China, Mexico or wherever the CHEAPEST labor could be found. The State Department recently issued a warning that due to security issues it's not safe for Americans to travel to Mexico - but it's okay to have our aircraft worked on there. The mechanics do not trust outsourced maintenance (including domestic outsourcing) and for good reason - because they see and routinely fix the horrendous messes that routinely come out of those facilities. UAL might save a few grand on an outsourced overhaul but end up paying for it on the first C-Check afterwards. Putting off maintenance doesn't save you money, it ends up costing more in the end and -IT'S DANGEROUS.

Secondly: The mechanics have already given a great deal to this management team only to see them piss it down the river with asinine 'business schemes' like TED. We are more than willing to save this airline but the current 'leadership' (if that's what you really want to call it) has ZERO credibility and is not going to get another hand out to continue the status quo.

United's problems are not due to labor. They have a very talented and experienced workforce that they have been squandering due to their tunnel vision fixation on OUTSCOURCING. They believe it's the answer to everything but it hasn't saved them a damned dime and in fact has COST them money. There are simply too many managers sitting in tidy little cubicles on day shift, Monday through Friday producing reams of worthless bar graphs and reports and having meetings and coming up with all sorts of stupid assed ideas on how to save United Airlines. They live in a myopic world, never straying far from the comfort of the cubicle, seeing everything as it appears on a computer screen in the form of a series of PowerPoint slides.

While outside at night, on the weekends, in the rain the mechanics are trying to hold this deteriorating piece of #### together as best they can. Nobody bothers to come out and ask them what they need to get the job done.

Nope - it stops right here, right now. If that means the end of it so be it but it's NOT going to continue on the way it has been. We have real concerns about the state of this industry and the path it's taking and we are stakeholders in it just like everyone else. The mechanics at United have finally drawn the line. Tilton will undoubtably say that our actions aren't in the best interest of United. We say that threatening to abrogate our contracts is not in the best interest of United.

[post="243624"][/post]​

kcabpilot,

Excellent post and dead on!!!

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[Bigsky]

Finally a union at UAL that's had enough and stood up for what they believe. Labor is not the problem, poor mangement is!!! UAL ALPA should learn from the mechanics. My hat's off to the UAL mechs.

cheers

bigsky

 

[Busdrvr]

Finally a union at UAL that's had enough and stood up for what they believe. Labor is not the problem, poor mangement is!!! UAL ALPA should learn from the mechanics. My hat's off to the UAL mechs.

cheers

bigsky

[post="243811"][/post]​

Actually, had the NWA ALPA boys had some b@lls, and matched UAL payrates, we might not be having this discussion. I think before you throw stones at any other group, you'd best get a clue to the concessionist nature of your own.

 

[Bigsky]

Not thowing stones but I do think the fine UAL guys and gals are drastically under paid and going lower. NWA ALPA would have loved to have matched the UAL industry leading pay rates of the late 90's but they had to wait for their contract to reach it's ammendable date.
Still waiting for someone to answer this question: Why did the UAL pilots sign a contract with such drastic paycuts and the ammendable date set for 2009? Why not sign up for two years and see if you can renegotiate a better deal in 2006 or 2007? As I understand it the new TA extends the contract another 8 months.

good luck

bigsky

 

[Busdrvr]

Not thowing stones but I do think the fine UAL guys and gals are drastically under paid and going lower. NWA ALPA would have loved to have matched the UAL industry leading pay rates of the late 90's but they had to wait for their contract to reach it's ammendable date.
Still waiting for someone to answer this question: Why did the UAL pilots sign a contract with such drastic paycuts and the ammendable date set for 2009? Why not sign up for two years and see if you can renegotiate a better deal in 2006 or 2007? As I understand it the new TA extends the contract another 8 months.

good luck

bigsky

[post="243909"][/post]​

Lets say you have $2 billion. You got that way for a reason. You expect a certain ROR. UAL management gives you a spreadsheet and asks you for a loan for the next 5 years or so. the numbers on the spread sheet only go out one or two years, but show those years to be pretty good. You ask, "you want me to loan youmoney for five years, but are only giving me data for two, what gives?" They reply "our contracts only last a year. After that, we have no idea how much our employees will cost or even if they decide to strike the airline for a year" you gonna give them YOUR $2 billion? Didn't think so.

 

[Bigsky]

Now if UAL could just get their pilots to fly for free and sign up until 2015 perhaps someone will give them yet another loan for 10 billion or so. Yea, I know our turn is coming at NWA. Should have gone to Med school.

best of luck to us all.


Bigsky

 

[Busdrvr]

Should have gone to Med school.

[post="243914"][/post]​

Nah, Dr's are expected to perform. Wharton, you should have gone to Wharton. You can screw the pooch and it's A OK!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Lets say you have $2 billion. You got that way for a reason. You expect a certain ROR. UAL management gives you a spreadsheet and asks you for a loan for the next 5 years or so. the numbers on the spread sheet only go out one or two years, but show those years to be pretty good. You ask, "you want me to loan youmoney for five years, but are only giving me data for two, what gives?" They reply "our contracts only last a year. After that, we have no idea how much our employees will cost or even if they decide to strike the airline for a year" you gonna give them YOUR $2 billion? Didn't think so.

[post="243911"][/post]​

Is labor the only cost the airlines need to be concerned with?

What about fuel?

Can they project 5 years into the future what fuel is going to cost? If not then your arguement makes no sense.

Read the Business week article on GE. They keep loaning USAIR money because GE is making money off USAIR.

What are the creditors going to do with all those assetts if they are not lending, leasing or selling them? Is GE going to start their own airline or is leasing them more profitable?

They fact is that the unions were too stupid to see that and allowed themselves to get suckered into bad deals. The airlines have faced tough times in the past yet they still got financing without long term labor contracts.

Sure the excuse you gave was a good reason for the company to seek long term concessionary contracts but not a good one for the unions to accept them.

 

[Busdrvr]

Is labor the only cost the airlines need to be concerned with?

What about fuel?

Can they project 5 years into the future what fuel is going to cost? If not then your arguement makes no sense.

Actually they can if they want to. It's called hedging. But WRT fuel, everyone pays the same. there is no fear that UAL will cut a deal that pays 20-30% more for fuel than the competition.

"Read the Business week article on GE. They keep loaning USAIR money because GE is making money off USAIR."

UAL told GE to pound sand shortly after BK. GE wanted to maintain much higher than market lease rates in exchange for DIP. Maybe that's one of the reasons. why U ended up back in BK and losing pension.

"What are the creditors going to do with all those assetts if they are not lending, leasing or selling them? Is GE going to start their own airline or is leasing them more profitable?"

You don't think there is a market for A320's and 777's? maybe that logic will work when AMR files since nobody wants MD-80's, but not with UAL's fleet.

"They fact is that the unions were too stupid to see that and allowed themselves to get suckered into bad deals. The airlines have faced tough times in the past yet they still got financing without long term labor contracts."

How much you puttin up Bob? This ain't a charity. It's actually the idiots who claim to know about corporate finance yet come up with your B.S. You were out telling them about the unemployment check they'd be getting. Well how about it Bob? Do they?

Sure the excuse you gave was a good reason for the company to seek long term concessionary contracts but not a good one for the unions to accept them.

Having a JOB isn't a "good reason". I guess we'll see won't we. If there is a union primed to get crushed right now, it's the AMFA. And to be egging them on is irresponsible.