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UAL could outsource a max of 2600 plus jobs

$828.00 per month is nothing to sneeze at. Especially when my dues are only $46.00 per month.
 
WeAAsles said:
So you feel that earning an average of $207.00 a week more than the average non union counterpart according to BLS in 2014 is not a value? You like to quote BLS well here you are. Tangible, verifiable numbers.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
 
 
WeAAsles said:
$828.00 per month is nothing to sneeze at. Especially when my dues are only $46.00 per month.
Yupper to both of you...
 
So you feel that earning an average of $207.00 a week more than the average non union counterpart according to BLS in 2014 is not a value? You like to quote BLS well here you are. Tangible, verifiable numbers.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
again, you want to cite GENERAL industry data to show what unions have done but you don't want to accept industry SPECIFIC data which shows that DL has done a better job of improving compensation for its employees than have other AIRLINES.

now, go look at the industries that are heavily unionized and it is absolutely true that unions obtain higher salaries... I have never disputed that.

but those industries include lots of government workers and heavy industry where there are little to no other non-union options.

The difference between DL and other unionized airlines is not unlike what happened in the auto industry - DL pays more just like some of the foreign automakers did when they came to the US.

the majority of industries including government workers and heavy industry do not have a non-union option so there is no basis for arguing whether a union has done better within an industry

in the airline industry, there is a valid comparison.

DL pays better than AA or UA and has provided faster growth in compensation.
 
precisely, Kev.

which is why the union crowd wants to talk about general industry comparisons instead of the airline industry....
because in the airline industry, DL has done a better job of raising its people's pay than any other large US airline and has also pushed its people above AA and UA levels... and most of DL's people are non-union.

with that kind of industry specific data to focus on, all of the accomplishments of what the unions have accomplished elsewhere don't mean a thing to the airline industry.
 
ThirdSeatHero said:
The examples I gave were simply the most glaring at first glance, how are you sure there aren't more? If United made a mistake reporting, couldn't AA or DL?
 
For instance - according to the data under Total In-House Passenger, Cargo and Aircraft Handling Employee Equivalents for 2013  UAL has 43,700 vs DAL at 26,446 - so because the rest of the data MUST be accurate UAL and their UNION contracts keep more work in this area in house where Non-union, non-contract delta outsources more.
 
That's the point you can't be sure, but you're so desperate to try and use this as some sort of definative proof of something when at the onset it has glaring inaccuracies.
 
That is why the report cannot be reiied upon to accurately deduce anything related to wages benefits, staffing etc.
It's been a few years since I dived into it, but what I do know is the MIT data CANNOT be used to derive base wages or even total compensation. The wage data simply can't be normalized, and those who do risk looking like a fool.

It's not due to mistakes in the data -- it's because corporations choose handle their internal expense accounting differently yet entirely within GAAP and what's required by the DOT. Outsourcing a particular function may be assigned entirely to one cash flow statement line at AA, split in two different statement lines at DL, and in a completely different line at UA.

There's some good comparison data available from MIT, but the only way it's been of value to me is for really use it for comparing a carrier to itself over time, not as a side by side comparison. Even there it is challenging, since with mergers has come differences in the accounting.
 
(Focus on PAY, ignore everything else)
(Focus on PAY, ignore everything else)
(Focus on PAY, ignore everything else)
(Focus on PAY, ignore everything else)
(Focus on PAY, ignore everything else)
(Focus on PAY, ignore everything else)

And here we are yet again. Another one of probably hundreds of threads hijacked by one particular poster who has an obsession to talk about a particular airline when the topic had and has nothing to do with that airline at all.

But to go with it for a moment. I do like the idea of being paid well. Base pay and other items like Profit Sharing.  BUT I also like ALL the other items that I receive in a CONTRACT that are not as easily defined by monetary value. The greatest one being JOB SECURITY. I have ZERO concern about losing my job which my non union counterparts over at DL can't say. So is there tangible monetary value that should be attached to that? Absolutely.

When I retire I will have had a 32 year career. So let's do a simple equation here.

I have a 32 year career and retire with my frozen Pension, whatever I've put into my 401k, and SS when I begin to collect. I'll enjoy hitting those golf balls in the Caribbean in my old age.

My DL counterpart hired on the same day as me but he got fired after 15 years. Maybe he was fired because he should have been?  Maybe he was just a little too vocal and didn't know how to stay under the radar? Or maybe the company just found a good excuse that they could use to get rid of a too highly paid employee in their mind? OK well if the last one was the case this is what he got from the company. 15 years of pay and 6 months of unemployment since the company really had no leg to stand on to fight it. But he lives in a "Right To Work" State so he couldn't get his job back. So after the unemployment insurance runs out who knows what happened to him?

So at the end of it all comparing myself and my non protected counterpart, who had the greater value I ask?

Simple
.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic. All of those people who got displaced at UAL have job security through the right to bump the lower seniority people in the system. Those who didn't accept the $2.00 per hour cut. They have and maintain the ability to continue their employment albeit in a geographic location they may not have preferred if they don't agree to the terms. Those people who may be bumped to the street because of those displacement ALL will have the ability to return to the job as openings come up.


 
 
eolesen said:
It's been a few years since I dived into it, but what I do know is the MIT data CANNOT be used to derive base wages or even total compensation. The wage data simply can't be normalized, and those who do risk looking like a fool.

It's not due to mistakes in the data -- it's because corporations choose handle their internal expense accounting differently yet entirely within GAAP and what's required by the DOT. Outsourcing a particular function may be assigned entirely to one cash flow statement line at AA, split in two different statement lines at DL, and in a completely different line at UA.

There's some good comparison data available from MIT, but the only way it's been of value to me is for really use it for comparing a carrier to itself over time, not as a side by side comparison. Even there it is challenging, since with mergers has come differences in the accounting.

Thank you E. Your comments on this forum are credible because they do not feel like they are peppered with any type of particular agenda. You have specific ideals and opinions on things and I may not always agree with, but they at least come from a place of logic and make for interesting debate and aren't close minded.
 
eolesen said:
It's been a few years since I dived into it, but what I do know is the MIT data CANNOT be used to derive base wages or even total compensation. The wage data simply can't be normalized, and those who do risk looking like a fool.

It's not due to mistakes in the data -- it's because corporations choose handle their internal expense accounting differently yet entirely within GAAP and what's required by the DOT. Outsourcing a particular function may be assigned entirely to one cash flow statement line at AA, split in two different statement lines at DL, and in a completely different line at UA.

There's some good comparison data available from MIT, but the only way it's been of value to me is for really use it for comparing a carrier to itself over time, not as a side by side comparison. Even there it is challenging, since with mergers has come differences in the accounting.
 
Damn it E, why'd you have to go and ruin the ride? :lol:
 
You are correct, and what I find amazing is that so many (both pro and anti union) try to twist this to tell a certain tale when the group at MIT clearly spell out that an accurate accounting cannot be made due to the reasons you detailed above - I have cautioned many on both sides against the mis-use of the report but as you can see it still goes on.
 
From the report
 
 
It is not possible to perform an accurate calculation for maintenance, engineering and ground costs for those airlines that outsource a significant portion of this work, but the data does show a trend toward increased outsourcing of maintenance work.
 
Because of differing reporting methods by various airlines, it is also not possible to accurately calculate average salary and benefits for the various classes and crafts of ground and related employees.
 
Precisely why I've never used that data to try and ascertain costs or salaries related to Airline ground handling. The numbers are not accurately reflected since it lumps in others. I have used it to gauge in house maintenance employee counts though. I wonder if the data on that site will continue to be updated since William Swelbar took on a new job and his blog site no longer exists? (Pity)

BTW even the BLS doesn't weed out specifics for "Airline" ground handling but rather lumps the whole thing under Transportation which could include a myriad of specifics.
 
and yet neither you or anyone else can come up with REAL data that shows how salary and compensation actually takes place so you want to ignore what is there, can provide nothing else to support your claims, and then trout out CBAs that say nothing about what happens in real life.

the reason why labor unions - and E - are relegated to being insignificant is because you make stupid statements like what you have and can produce no viable information - and only shoot down what does exist.

no, the labor movement is in decline because DL has proven in the airline industry that it is doing a better job of advancing the cause of its employees than any union is.

keep spinning.... it only gives me more opportunities to keep making the labor movement look stupid like they are and to highlight what DL is doing for its employees.

if you were half smart, you would stop.

but we know better.

besides, you and E supposedly have me on ignore... but here we are in yet another thread that you can't help but open your mouths and prove together how wrong you are.

It's been a few years since I dived into it, but what I do know is the MIT data CANNOT be used to derive base wages or even total compensation. The wage data simply can't be normalized, and those who do risk looking like a fool.

It's not due to mistakes in the data -- it's because corporations choose handle their internal expense accounting differently yet entirely within GAAP and what's required by the DOT. Outsourcing a particular function may be assigned entirely to one cash flow statement line at AA, split in two different statement lines at DL, and in a completely different line at UA.

There's some good comparison data available from MIT, but the only way it's been of value to me is for really use it for comparing a carrier to itself over time, not as a side by side comparison. Even there it is challenging, since with mergers has come differences in the accounting.
HORSE POOP.

HORSE POOP.

HORSE POOP.

In-house labor costs appear in one place and one place only on financial statements.

That is the ONLY issue that is at stake here.

this is not about outsourcing.

this is about UA's own INTERNAL employees.

They pay their employees less than DL employees.

and the absolute change in pay is still not explained by your explanation.

you are the one that looks like a fool every time you try to jump into a discussion about which you are motivated more by trying to prove someone wrong than to talk about the truth.

UA's only people have acknowledged the changes... Ralph Nader recognizes.

but EOlesen wants to come along and tell us that the data is all screwed up.

HORSE POOP.

HORSE POOP.

HORSE POOP.
 
Blah blah blah blah. Obtuse, inconsequential, mundane, boring and irrelevant.

Carry on Hector. You're amusing today.
 
I'm glad you are being entertained.

the value of unionization - or the lack thereof -is hardly a laughing matter for those who have paid out hundreds of millions only to have their non-union peers at other airlines end up better off.

there is no confusion - employee costs by dept. are pretty easy to allocate and so is the total number of employees. the rest is basic math.
 

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