UAL could outsource a max of 2600 plus jobs

[WeAAsles]

Paid, lying, manipulative, deceptive, unethical and more than likely immoral troll. You have zero credibility. Sad that you obviously relish throwing salt on people's wounds on this thread to support your completely transparent agenda.

As a supposed Christian you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[WorldTraveler]

if you think for one minute that anyone with half a brain is dumb enough to reduce a conversation about average compensation to religion in order to avoid facing the facts, then you are truly to be pitied.

You and others have been trying to make the argument for years that DL people are paid less than their peers at other airlines.

In fact, DOT data notes that airport ground staff (non-maintenance) are the highest paid of AA and UA personnel.

for you to try to drag religion into the discussion to avoid admitting that you are wrong is the height of union manipulation that is precisely why the union movement is in decline in the US.

whether you will admit it or not, DL employees in the same airport ground staffing category make more that their peers at AA and UA, even with the RR program at DL.

furthermore, DL has done a better job of protecting the jobs of its own airport personnel in the past five years than either AA or UA have done.

trying to hide behind the stat that AA staffs its airports using Envoy personnel as well as AA personnel is a feeble union attempt to admit that the TWU was powerless to stop AA outsourcing and that in fact converted a number of stations to lower paid Envoy employees and AA still has its own employees in fewer airports than DL.

and UA is well on its way to eliminating its own people at full TA pay in dozens of more cities because the IAM agreed to a contract that allows them to do so.

those are the facts and if you think there is any religion to do with them, then the only religion is those in union leadership who should be pleading for mercy from the Almighty for how badly they have failed those who pay their salaries and elected them.

 

[WeAAsles]

Post verifiable reputable data to back up your assertions and I will capitulate to that data. Otherwise I have posted what can be found while you post nothing more than hollow words bereft of meaning.

 

[T5towbar]

if you think for one minute that anyone with half a brain is dumb enough to reduce a conversation about average compensation to religion in order to avoid facing the facts, then you are truly to be pitied.

You and others have been trying to make the argument for years that DL people are paid less than their peers at other airlines.

In fact, DOT data notes that airport ground staff (non-maintenance) are the highest paid of AA and UA personnel.

for you to try to drag religion into the discussion to avoid admitting that you are wrong is the height of union manipulation that is precisely why the union movement is in decline in the US.

whether you will admit it or not, DL employees in the same airport ground staffing category make more that their peers at AA and UA, even with the RR program at DL.

furthermore, DL has done a better job of protecting the jobs of its own airport personnel in the past five years than either AA or UA have done.

trying to hide behind the stat that AA staffs its airports using Envoy personnel as well as AA personnel is a feeble union attempt to admit that the TWU was powerless to stop AA outsourcing and that in fact converted a number of stations to lower paid Envoy employees and AA still has its own employees in fewer airports than DL.

and UA is well on its way to eliminating its own people at full TA pay in dozens of more cities because the IAM agreed to a contract that allows them to do so.

those are the facts and if you think there is any religion to do with them, then the only religion is those in union leadership who should be pleading for mercy from the Almighty for how badly they have failed those who pay their salaries and elected them.

Our District Leadership may have failed us with our contract. BUT I would rather have a contract now. Even more than ever.
That was why people voted it in. (full disclosure: I voted no for various reasons) It would have happened anyway, with the larger sUA numbers. But there is "competitive" pressure to drive down costs. And not having our own in-house outsourcing company does not help the situation either. That's the advantage that DL and AA has over us. They can do their own work PLUS do ours as well. (we are getting rid of DGS in some of the newly insourced stations like MCO). Having a "D" scale workforce saves money for the beancounters. If the company did not screw over the pensions of the sUA members in BK, more would have retired on their own terms, and a better buyout would have gotten the required numbers. But no, they wanted to inflict pain, so they went with this.  
 
Of course, DL makes more, but they have a RR force to bolster and protect the benefited employees. We and WN does not have that. It's something that works for them, but it drives down costs to everybody else, IMHO. We have to be "competitive" with the likes of DGS; Envoy; and the other companies who taken over the contracts for the stations. Let the revolving door begin. I just know that we will fight and fight harder to protect and preserve what we will have left. We will have a stronger hand with better leadership from the District, whose membership that survives this will be ready and engaged.   

 

[WorldTraveler]

There is a line called "Passenger, Cargo and Aircraft Handling" on each airline's page at the MIT Airline Data Project http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html in the section Salary and Benefits

here are the numbers for 2013

AA $43,107
DL $50,057
UA $29,332
US $39,135

The argument that RRs bring down the DL average is not accurate because these average salary figures are based no Full Time Equivalent employees which means that RR salaries are converted to FTE.

when you look at the growth in DL salaries across the board, the increases are far larger than the scale advances, esp. in groups like In-Flight that have hired thousands of new FAs at the bottom of the scale over the past couple years, it is apparent that DL's profit sharing is a key reason why DL's compensation growth has far outstripped that of other airlines in the past several years.

It is also worth noting the difference between WN and other carriers' average salaries and realize why WN cannot afford to give away pay raises of any significance.

I appreciate you looking at the stats, Weassles, and they validate exactly what I have said for years that DL employees fare better than their peers at the legacy airlines and DL's compensation growth has been far larger than for other airlines in the past several years.

 

[robbedagain]

We don't have RR either.    Think DL is the only one with them  but an active DL employee can verify that.  
 
T5  while your contract is what it is   at least you folks have a contract vs DL    I do hope and sincerely wish to see you all at UA get a much more enhanced and better improved deal the next time bro.    And itll be nice to see DL go union  hopefully thatll happen soon...

 

[WorldTraveler]

UA has part-time employees... the title and schedule may be different than DL but the concept is the same. you can tell me what AA and US have for PT including benefits.

and it still doesn't change that all of this talk on here about DL's RRs pulling down wages is simply not accurate.

DL airport employees - and DL uses RR in all areas so far as I know - certainly ramp and passenger service - make more than their peers at AA or UA.

if the "theory" that some repeatedly hang on to that RRs pull down DL average salaries were true, the statistics would show it.... but they don't.

and again, you are so emotionally attached to the concept of a union that you would cut off your nose to spite your face.

DL employees are smart enough to recognize that they have been better off as non-union employees playing by DL's rules than they would be under union rules and compensation that exist at other airlines.

the economic argument is that DL employee ARE NOT willing to cut their compensation to become unionized esp. when we are talking about a thread involving thousands of jobs lost by UA on the ramp or what is being "saved" involves the employees bidding to LOWER their salaries in order to keep their jobs.

 

[Kev3188]

UA has part-time employees... the title and schedule may be different than DL but the concept is the same.

Well except UA PT'ers accruing seniority, having benefits, a pay scale with more than one step, no max on hours, and a laundry list of other items.

But yeah; totally the same. 🙄

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, I'm glad to hear you list those things....

and yet despite those differences, did you see the difference between what DL and UA rampers make?
 

here are the numbers for 2013

AA $43,107
DL $50,057
UA $29,332
US $39,135

those aren't just little numbers, Kevin.

that is a massive difference between UA and DL rampers - the two extremes of the legacy sector (accurately the statistic is airport workers because the DOT category includes what airlines typically categorize as above wing customer service and below wing ramp service as well as cargo.

I don't have the breakdown of how UA staffs its ramp but they clearly do not have near as many people at top of FT scale as DL does in order to be paying those kinds of average salaries.

whatever is happening with RRs at DL is nowhere near enough to offset lower wages that UA is obviously paying a whole lot of people.

 

[LD3]

I feel like vomiting...

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

This MIT study has been cited before and should be greeted with skepticism when it is used in an attempt at any sort of definitive statement on compensation/benefits

 

[700UW]

Those numbers arent correct for ramp, those numbers include Ramp, Air Cargo and Passenger Service which we all know at UA, US, AA and WN are under different CBAs, and Upstairs at AA just unionized and arent under a CBA.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and if you can show us that US rampers make 20% more than their above wing counterparts, then you can begin to argue the numbers aren't valid for the combined group.

The data comes directly from the airlines to the DOT.

there is nothing wrong with the numbers except they don't tell the story that a lot of union people want them to tell.

The DOT data includes total and average compensation for most workgroups.

averages are never completely able to paint a full picture - but they tell what the AVERAGE person in that workgroup will get.

when people continually throw up pay scales and then we look at average fare data which is completely opposite to what the scales say, it says there are a whole lot less people at the top of one scale than at the other carrier and at multiple other points along the scale.

more significantly, DOT data is the ONLY comprehensive look at salary and benefit data for an entire airline.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

and if you can show us that US rampers make 20% more than their above wing counterparts, then you can begin to argue the numbers aren't valid for the combined group.

The data comes directly from the airlines to the DOT.

there is nothing wrong with the numbers except they don't tell the story that a lot of union people want them to tell.

The DOT data includes total and average compensation for most workgroups.

averages are never completely able to paint a full picture - but they tell what the AVERAGE person in that workgroup will get.

when people continually throw up pay scales and then we look at average fare data which is completely opposite to what the scales say, it says there are a whole lot less people at the top of one scale than at the other carrier and at multiple other points along the scale.

more significantly, DOT data is the ONLY comprehensive look at salary and benefit data for an entire airline.

 
Look you can believe whatever you like but the data is clearly inaccurate.
 
In 1995 & 1996 it has Average Annual Wages and Salaries - INHOUSE MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL at UAL as  $134,850 and  $307,347
 
As someone who was there both of those years I can tell you that is flat out wrong.

 

[WorldTraveler]

obviously there is bad data there for those years. if you look at the number of personnel in maintenance in 95 and 96, UA said it had 4623 in 95 and then 2135 in 1996. that is why the average salaries are distorted. a year later there were 15K personnel in UA maintenance.

But it doesn't change that the rest of the numbers look very realistic... and the only reason why you and others don't want to accept them is because it doesn't tell the story you want - which is that a union has resulted in higher compensation.

It hasn't.