One other thing....I believe ALPA's proposal called for an across the board wage cut of 16.25% for all pilots including the 757. So, the more I think about what you are saying is that you are actually asking for the 757 pilots to take more of a wage cut than the 16.25% everyone else will take (if that category of aircraft is down graded). Is that your version of fair?
Us Airways Negotiations: 12 Angry Men
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Walmartgreeter
Veteran
Piney, this lawsuit stuff is so old it has mold on it. There are a LARGE number of pilots still upset that they were not even given a vote on the termination of their pension. A large number sued ALPA over said disgrace, and a small number even ran for office and even routed the weaklings that caved without a membership vote. Please notice that the Bush administration is now looking into UAL. U pilots will NEVER benefit from any govt. intervention because they, actually, VOTED by proxy, to eliminate their plan. 320 has done a p...s poor job of acutally presenting the current situation. My outlook is the U pilots are willing to cut benefits and by over HALF to save the company...but what good is it if guys like 320, Segull, Lakefield, and Bronner (the screaming bedcase) have the run of the givebacks. You are a stand up guy. DO NOT take note of 320 and his stories. Best Greeter.PineyBob said:
delldude said:
The arrogance of the people in PIT amazes me. PIT will never ever see the level of service U provided over the years. The population of PIT decreases with every census. O and D traffic is relatively light to begin with. The best you can hope for is 20 to 30 flights a day from one carrier.
Walmartgreeter
Veteran
USA320Pilot said:
Let me see. You call Freshwater (NOT YOUR REP) "stupid" and "a dictator" and you sign your posts "respectfully". YOu are a disgrace to the pilot profession, and all that has come before you. How long are the moderators going to allow you slanted slams and messages. I fully expect them to kick me off first. I have tried to use proper decorm, even addressing your lies, but now I must say....YOU are a "big fat fibber" (is that ok? otherwise I am headed to the cornfield) Best to you all...greeter.
Mlt:
The issue is simple -- the RC4 are negotiating for them self and are in disagreement with virtually every other ALPA official and advisor.
The ALPA proposal calls for a cut in night pay and non-transatlantic international pay, which the parties discussed to reduce costs instead of paying all narrowbody equipment B757/A320/B737 the same rate, which the company proposed because it's in the America West contract.
The RC4 have decided to not have the B757 equal America West rates as the company proposed, but instead lower the non-transatlantic international and eliminate night pay.
I believe in shared sacrifice and not where the senior, junior, old, or young benefit at the expense of others. The RC4 are simply looking out for them self.
Freshwater is suing ALPA and the MEC, he used vulgar language in open session at yesterday’s meeting, he is seeking cost increase items to benefit the senior, he walked out of the meeting when others discuss issues, and he refuses to listen to constituents unless they support his self serving agenda. He also insults pilots in official communications and lacks general decorum.
Finally, to those pilots personally being sued the issue is very serious.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
The issue is simple -- the RC4 are negotiating for them self and are in disagreement with virtually every other ALPA official and advisor.
The ALPA proposal calls for a cut in night pay and non-transatlantic international pay, which the parties discussed to reduce costs instead of paying all narrowbody equipment B757/A320/B737 the same rate, which the company proposed because it's in the America West contract.
The RC4 have decided to not have the B757 equal America West rates as the company proposed, but instead lower the non-transatlantic international and eliminate night pay.
I believe in shared sacrifice and not where the senior, junior, old, or young benefit at the expense of others. The RC4 are simply looking out for them self.
Freshwater is suing ALPA and the MEC, he used vulgar language in open session at yesterday’s meeting, he is seeking cost increase items to benefit the senior, he walked out of the meeting when others discuss issues, and he refuses to listen to constituents unless they support his self serving agenda. He also insults pilots in official communications and lacks general decorum.
Finally, to those pilots personally being sued the issue is very serious.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
Walmartgreeter
Veteran
USA320Pilot said:
Please. You insult the membership. This issue(s) are NOT simple. Only you are (sorry readers, that was too easy a setup). I ASK AGAIN. WHAT SINGLE ISSUE HAS BEEN NEGOCIATED BY U MANGEMENT. NOT ONE THING. THIS IS A TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT PROPOSAL. The U pilots stepped forward AGAIN to offer their profession and aid to the company. The company said "take a hike," here is your contract...TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. 320 says take it. Greeter.
Dog Wonder
Veteran
The issue is simple -- the RC4 are negotiating for them self
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
If you had the respect of the people you work with you could negotiate for for 'them self' too.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
If you had the respect of the people you work with you could negotiate for for 'them self' too.
Bruce Lakefield told ALPA the company needed a LCC type contract with America West the benchmark. Early this year the union agreed to participate in the TP, but the NC and RC4 have provided about 80% of the concession and only 10% of the DC Plan.
In response, the company provided a proposal greater than $295 million. Is the company using bad faith bargaining? Yes, but so what, they always do. ALPA's advisors told the MEC this would occur, but the RC4 "rookies" knew better.
Bankruptcy could be avoided in mid-September if labor participates, but because of labor not participating in the new business plan at competitive levels the agreements are likely going to be worse.
That's o.k. because the RC4 know better than every other ALPA official or advisor, who collectively have hundreds of years of experience.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
In response, the company provided a proposal greater than $295 million. Is the company using bad faith bargaining? Yes, but so what, they always do. ALPA's advisors told the MEC this would occur, but the RC4 "rookies" knew better.
Bankruptcy could be avoided in mid-September if labor participates, but because of labor not participating in the new business plan at competitive levels the agreements are likely going to be worse.
That's o.k. because the RC4 know better than every other ALPA official or advisor, who collectively have hundreds of years of experience.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
I would prefer that the majority would consist of those able to separate reality from fiction and have the courage to act accordingly. A union should have solidarity by it's very nature and a 50%+1 vote would demonstrate a lack of solidarity. It is almost impossible to, in the short time remaining, build that unity and resolve, especially given the panic that the fear mongerers have helped fan.MarkMyWords said:
Make no mistake. These are not temporary concessions designed to help old US out with repayment in the future. It's the wholesale gutting of the profession. It is tantamount to confessing that the wage scale for pilots was a 50 year scam that the pilots were able to get away with. That they were never worth that kind of money and it's high time they got what they were really worth.
So there are 4 pilots who know what a pilot is worth and are willing to stand for something. They may not get to enjoy that which they are defending due to the die being long ago cast, but they will have earned the respect and honor of their fellow pilots. Their steadfastness will make it a little easier for the next pilot group to regain ground lost in the wave of concessions. And each group of pilots that stands up for their profession at their own personal risk instead of cowering for scraps will have the honor of having contributed to the building up of the profession.
hp_fa
Veteran
- Feb 19, 2004
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USA320Pilot said:
I don't know Freshwater or the other members of RC4, but if they have your panties in that tight a wad they are candidates for Holiday cards from me this December. You see, I am a firm believer in what goes around, comes around.
BTW, before you send in a complaint about me insulting you, name me one other person I treat the same as you. You can't. Even if I disagree with them, I respect them and their views. If I lived in Wisconsin I would buy you a big block of cheese to go with your whine.
" believe in shared sacrifice and not where the senior, junior, old, or young benefit at the expense of others:
A 16.25% wage reduction on top of an aircraft category downgrade, how is this a shared sacrifice? This is a double whammy to the 757 pilots. If this is your premise are you willing to take the 16.25% wage cut and have the 320 downgraded to an Embraer 170 payscale?
The RC4 are simply looking out for them self:
How can you write that? If they retire some captains who are in danger of being downgraded to first officer will be able to maintain their position. Some first officers who are in danger of being furloughed will be able to maintain their position. The company will realize a decrease in wages, vacation accrual/payout, life insurance, etc. How are they looking out for themself?
vulgar language:
Please. I've been known to utter s**t when I break a nail. In the midst of negotiations I would only imagine tempers are flaring. Fred is a very intelligent man. In his day to day life his vocabulary is quite extensive and he doesn't rely on profanity. If that is the worst thing one does in the midst of negotiations, I would say one has had a good day.
In a previous post I posted possible reasons to the issues the PHL & PIT reps are proposing. I think it would be beneficial to hear your counter reasoning.
A 16.25% wage reduction on top of an aircraft category downgrade, how is this a shared sacrifice? This is a double whammy to the 757 pilots. If this is your premise are you willing to take the 16.25% wage cut and have the 320 downgraded to an Embraer 170 payscale?
The RC4 are simply looking out for them self:
How can you write that? If they retire some captains who are in danger of being downgraded to first officer will be able to maintain their position. Some first officers who are in danger of being furloughed will be able to maintain their position. The company will realize a decrease in wages, vacation accrual/payout, life insurance, etc. How are they looking out for themself?
vulgar language:
Please. I've been known to utter s**t when I break a nail. In the midst of negotiations I would only imagine tempers are flaring. Fred is a very intelligent man. In his day to day life his vocabulary is quite extensive and he doesn't rely on profanity. If that is the worst thing one does in the midst of negotiations, I would say one has had a good day.
In a previous post I posted possible reasons to the issues the PHL & PIT reps are proposing. I think it would be beneficial to hear your counter reasoning.
Walmartgreeter
Veteran
BEAUTIFUL post. That is so true..we may never enjoy the fruits of our battle...but you are so right. It is WORTH it to stand up. Thank you for showing what a deleted by moderator 320 is. Best. Greeter.
If the RC4 are out of touch with the membership, has any recall attempt been made. Granted this takes some time, but from 320's posts this has been going on a long time. Any members of these councils care to comment.
Mlt:
A 16.25% pay cut is shared sacrifice. MDA has nothing to do with mainline cost comparisions between US Airways and America West. The issue is America West has one narrowbody pay rate for the B757/A320/B737. The company proposed lowering the B757 to A320/B737 rates at US Airways and the RC4 directed NC elected to eliminate night pay and change non-transatlantic pay instead, so the RC4 are protected at a higher pay.
I have seen the financial numbers and I have signed a non-disclosure statement. I cannot comment on the company's finances, but I can tell you this.
In a required quarterly filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the company said that while it was in compliance with financial covenants of federally guaranteed loans as of June 30, "it anticipates risk of failing to comply with the covenants as of Sept. 30, 2004."
The Form 10-Q, which is required of all publicly held companies, includes financial information and potential risks to investors. In the filing yesterday, US Airways said failure to achieve a competitive cost structure and to complete its Transformation Plan on a consensual basis "will force the company to re-examine its strategic options, including, but not limited to, a judicial restructuring." The company stressed the need to achieve its Transformation Plan during the third quarter "in light of the potential loss of financing for new regional jets, violation of debt covenants and significant collateralization events under certain credit card processing agreements." Terms of the loan guaranteed by the Air Transportation Stabilization Board require US Airways to maintain certain cash and debt terms, among other items.
Mlt, the financial advisors are recommending the union strike a deal for a reason! I believe an ERIP, early notational account payments, sick bank cash out, and liberal vacation fly back are great ideas for a successful company. For example, Southwest with their LCC contracts over the years and no DB plan can afford this, but US Airways is on the brink of collapse. In fact, about 25 key ALPA International, ALPA Advisor, and MEC members all have told the RC4 this, but yet these "rookies" seem to think they know better.
There is no excuse to use profanity, walk out of the meeting, or insult people, period.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
A 16.25% pay cut is shared sacrifice. MDA has nothing to do with mainline cost comparisions between US Airways and America West. The issue is America West has one narrowbody pay rate for the B757/A320/B737. The company proposed lowering the B757 to A320/B737 rates at US Airways and the RC4 directed NC elected to eliminate night pay and change non-transatlantic pay instead, so the RC4 are protected at a higher pay.
I have seen the financial numbers and I have signed a non-disclosure statement. I cannot comment on the company's finances, but I can tell you this.
In a required quarterly filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the company said that while it was in compliance with financial covenants of federally guaranteed loans as of June 30, "it anticipates risk of failing to comply with the covenants as of Sept. 30, 2004."
The Form 10-Q, which is required of all publicly held companies, includes financial information and potential risks to investors. In the filing yesterday, US Airways said failure to achieve a competitive cost structure and to complete its Transformation Plan on a consensual basis "will force the company to re-examine its strategic options, including, but not limited to, a judicial restructuring." The company stressed the need to achieve its Transformation Plan during the third quarter "in light of the potential loss of financing for new regional jets, violation of debt covenants and significant collateralization events under certain credit card processing agreements." Terms of the loan guaranteed by the Air Transportation Stabilization Board require US Airways to maintain certain cash and debt terms, among other items.
Mlt, the financial advisors are recommending the union strike a deal for a reason! I believe an ERIP, early notational account payments, sick bank cash out, and liberal vacation fly back are great ideas for a successful company. For example, Southwest with their LCC contracts over the years and no DB plan can afford this, but US Airways is on the brink of collapse. In fact, about 25 key ALPA International, ALPA Advisor, and MEC members all have told the RC4 this, but yet these "rookies" seem to think they know better.
There is no excuse to use profanity, walk out of the meeting, or insult people, period.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
I agree a 16.25% pay cut is a shared sacrifice. I fail to understand your reasoning that the 757 pilots are not taking a double hit when the aircraft category is downgraded.
Do you agree that if a more senior employee (in any labor group) leaves the property it enables a more junior employee to maintain employment? If so, do you believe a senior employee should walk away without negotiated benefits out of the goodness of one's heart?
If you believe the near retirement age pilots should walk away without the negotiated defined contribution plan (top hat), do you believe senior management should give up their top hat plan?
I am attempting to understand your reasoning and I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I suggest from this point on we discuss the contractual issues and leave personal behavior out of the discussion.
Do you agree that if a more senior employee (in any labor group) leaves the property it enables a more junior employee to maintain employment? If so, do you believe a senior employee should walk away without negotiated benefits out of the goodness of one's heart?
If you believe the near retirement age pilots should walk away without the negotiated defined contribution plan (top hat), do you believe senior management should give up their top hat plan?
I am attempting to understand your reasoning and I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I suggest from this point on we discuss the contractual issues and leave personal behavior out of the discussion.
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