US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Richard]

Another week, another load of suspensions and deleted posts........

We will start again with the standard reminder to discuss the issues--NOT the posters.....

Again, there is NOTHING that any of you can say in this forum which will affect the outcome of this dispute, and apparently nothing that will change anyone's mind. I'm sorry but for many of you to behave as you do here is an embarrassment to your profession, and does NOTHING to help your cause.

I will remind you once again to STAY ON TOPIC, and do NOT flame or insult other members or call names.

No more warnings-posts will be deleted without comment, and members suspended without comment....and if it gets bad enough we'll lock it until next week....

PLEASE think before you post and stop rehashing the same ole same ole...it won't accomplish ANYTHING except waste bandwidth.

Thank you.

 

[ussnark]

From prior thread:

..... while the sentence you quoted from me is true and correct, it's context is missing in your post. The context was that the prior management or US Airways for that ten-year span had run the company into bankruptcy. Twice. As I said elsewhere in the quoted post, current management hasn't yet done that.

Shall we slice and dice history just to make a selective point, one that does not hold up anywhere else?

I played by your rules and you don't like the outcome.

It seems you are trying to "justify" who bought whom. I think Richard has been very clear on this issue.

Personally, I feel posters from the west had it right, a new company started with the "merger". Therefore, the pilots should be considered one big 5200 pilot "new hire class". How does every company rank seniority of a new hire class? Differentiate by chronological age, oldest most senior. Right? 🙄

.... Just kidding.....

 

[jetjok1]

On EastUS previous post about reducing 600 positions of various ground personnel and clubs and whatnot.....

East,

How else do you think they are going to pay for their" on- time" bonuses? And, of course, it's one of the many "steps" in the-

"We have no money to give you guys (and gals) to replace LOA93" or even fund Kommandant Kirby's Fantasy Funding notion.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hearing 10 AM Thursday. This time, the company is coming along and we all get to hear their take on USAPA's supposed "right" to Section 6. Yeah...I'm sure East, West and the company all contemplated Section 6 four years ago when Doug got bankers to front a heck of a lot of money to "merge" AWA and US Airways.

Sure. Right. Ummhmm.

You gotta say one thing: this judge gets it and he sure as heck knows what he's doing. This is going to be one complete record, from start to end, for the 9th.

 

[ussnark]

Why is it that USAPA is completely unwilling to compromise even one red cent when it comes to collection of dues, yet, a non-stop theme of "the West must compromise on seniority" reverberates throughout the hallowed hard drives of every web-board where this labor issue is discussed?

Um, ALPA asked the west for compromise and they refused. The east offered LOS, a significant compromise and the west refused to budge.

I'd say summary terminations for non-payment of dues would be most generous.

 

[EastUS]

On EastUS previous post about reducing 600 positions of various ground personnel and clubs and whatnot.....

East,

How else do you think they are going to pay for their" on- time" bonuses? And, of course, it's one of the many "steps" in the-

"We have no money to give you guys (and gals) to replace LOA93" or even fund Kommandant Kirby's Fantasy Funding notion.

Yep. We've certainly got zero argument that underhanded BS will be the sorry but fully expected "norm" whenever dealing with the execs here.

 

[EastUS]

Hearing 10 AM Thursday.

At the 9th Circuit you mean? Oh..I guess not..back to "yawn" mode. Don't wear out those pom poms in the meanwhile.

Seriously; nothing's even remotely going to be finished up around here in any hurry, and none of us can begin to know how it will all play out in the end.

 

[EastUS]

Sure. Right. Ummhmm.

Indeed. It occurs to me that having your input on a previous posting might serve to educate some, myself, hopefully among said some:

"QUOTE (aquagreen73s @ Jul 14 2009, 01:36 PM) *
We've been at this for more than four years; another 36 months to hammer this shut isn't a problem."

Here's the part I find to be of interest = Is it not the west's position that, as always..."It's OVER...get used to it!!", and that the inevitable result will certainly be immediate east capitulation, shortly followed by "an industry leading contract"? See, where it becomes murky, is that, while the above positions were all loudly shouted even days ago...it now seems that "another 36 months to hammer this shut isn't a problem." I guess what I'm wondering about here is twofold:

1) Is it fair to believe that the west's "certainty" as to everything being quickly "over" is at all slipping?

2) How is that "another 36 months....isn't a problem" where seeking Nic's concerned...but clearly, ZERO patience exists out west for the obtaining of actual seniority the old fashioned way = actually earning it by time worked? If I've got the "logic" straight here...."We've been at this for more than four years"..and, indeed "another 36 months...isn't a problem"? I make that to be at LEAST 7 years then spent in the Holy Crusade for St Nic. Did it ever even occur to anyone out west to see where they'd sit on the list by way of the natural progression that has/will take place while all this plays out? 🙄

Lastly; Given that the Nic's clearly so completely "fair and equitable", and offers no obscene windfall for the west whatsoever....how is it even remotely possible that extravagant litigation expenses....much less 7+ years of at best, complete west stagnation, shrinkage and/or worse, is worth spending in it's pursuit? :blink:

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

At the 9th Circuit you mean? Oh..I guess not..back to "yawn" mode. Don't wear out those pom poms in the meanwhile.

Seriously; nothing's even remotely going to be finished up around here in any hurry, and none of us can begin to know how it will all play out in the end.

Perhaps you are right, but a federal judge is no pimp daddy prater or stir the pot parker. What the east has gotten away with so far might have given you false expectations.

 

[EastUS]

Perhaps you are right, but a federal judge is no pimp daddy prater or stir the pot parker. What the east has gotten away with so far might have given you false expectations.

We've all our personal opinions, to be sure. When all's said and done though....the west simply can NOT ever obtain any single contract, any escape from the dwindling west flying market/etc..without the voted consent of the east....period. Based on economic trends, the regional yields, reduction trends...and a capricious management that views employees as liabilities and has no hesitation about putting people on the street....well, I honestly mean no cruelty here but, as things are going; How much of the west do you really think will even be here in 3 plus years?...4?/etc?

I sure hope the obsession with the nic will prove worth it for all concerned.

 

[cleardirect]

This has been quite a week in the legal arena. July 7th brought an exciting hearing with judge Wake slapping little Lucus around a bit. If you have not read the transcripts from that hearing I suggest that you do. Interesting insight into where the judge is going.

On Thursday the judge is going to drag the company and the two parties into his court room for a little more fun. It appears that the judge has some serious questions about section 6 and how usapa thinks they may play games with it. Again I suggest reading the filings and delve into the mind of Seham et al.

Little Lucus argued that usapa could gain leverage over the company by separate contracts. The judge was not impressed with that logic.
His comment:

The Court: But you are overlooking it would also give USAPA the power to discriminate in favor of the east pilots at the cost of the west pilots in a way that could effectively evade the implementation of the Nicolau.

So we are going to find out if the judge has the power to tell usapa that even though they are liable for DFR that they may be able to go into section 6 separate contracts.

Here is where it gets fun. I think that at one time or another every east poster has said something to this effect. The person who has stood in line the longest deserves to get ahead of the new comer. Or how much time you have invested is important. Things along those lines. Well it is time to see where your integrity lies and if you truly believe in your convictions. The judge may allow separate negotiations.

But being the seniority based union and principled people that you are. Since the west has been in section 6 since last year and the east is not yet eligible. The west has seniority to section 6. Therefore I would suggest that if the judge is going to allow separate negotiation. The usapa and the east pilots step up and support this.

That since the west is senior; usapa negotiates a west contract first before moving on to an east contract. This would have to be negotiated to ratification by the west members. That way the west pilots get our raise and better working conditions while the east waits on the appeal. You may or may not get snap backs but if you are all so confident in that you will not mind waiting. Right! So it would also be in usapa’s best interest to get the best deal possible as soon as possible for the west, that way they can start on the east contract. But it would have to include enough for the west to vote for it. Remember the Nicolau does not come into play here because it is still separate. So the contract would have to be really good.

So taking you east pilots at your word you have no problem letting the senior member that has been waiting longer go ahead of you to collect the benefits, correct. That is what you have been telling everyone why the Nicolau is not fair, correct. So you guys will not mind waiting another two or three years before starting your section 6 negotiations, correct. Kind of along the lines, You west guys just wait 10 years and you will own the airline. Just wait and you guys will get a contract.

 

[EastUS]

That way the west pilots get our raise and better working conditions while the east waits.....

No one could better illustrate the true nature of west "Integrity" and notions of morality in an instant.

 

[Hate2fly]

This has been quite a week in the legal arena. July 7th brought an exciting hearing with judge Wake slapping little Lucus around a bit. If you have not read the transcripts from that hearing I suggest that you do. Interesting insight into where the judge is going.

On Thursday the judge is going to drag the company and the two parties into his court room for a little more fun. It appears that the judge has some serious questions about section 6 and how usapa thinks they may play games with it. Again I suggest reading the filings and delve into the mind of Seham et al.

Little Lucus argued that usapa could gain leverage over the company by separate contracts. The judge was not impressed with that logic.
His comment:


So we are going to find out if the judge has the power to tell usapa that even though they are liable for DFR that they may be able to go into section 6 separate contracts.

Here is where it gets fun. I think that at one time or another every east poster has said something to this effect. The person who has stood in line the longest deserves to get ahead of the new comer. Or how much time you have invested is important. Things along those lines. Well it is time to see where your integrity lies and if you truly believe in your convictions. The judge may allow separate negotiations.

But being the seniority based union and principled people that you are. Since the west has been in section 6 since last year and the east is not yet eligible. The west has seniority to section 6. Therefore I would suggest that if the judge is going to allow separate negotiation. The usapa and the east pilots step up and support this.

That since the west is senior; usapa negotiates a west contract first before moving on to an east contract. This would have to be negotiated to ratification by the west members. That way the west pilots get our raise and better working conditions while the east waits on the appeal. You may or may not get snap backs but if you are all so confident in that you will not mind waiting. Right! So it would also be in usapa’s best interest to get the best deal possible as soon as possible for the west, that way they can start on the east contract. But it would have to include enough for the west to vote for it. Remember the Nicolau does not come into play here because it is still separate. So the contract would have to be really good.

So taking you east pilots at your word you have no problem letting the senior member that has been waiting longer go ahead of you to collect the benefits, correct. That is what you have been telling everyone why the Nicolau is not fair, correct. So you guys will not mind waiting another two or three years before starting your section 6 negotiations, correct. Kind of along the lines, You west guys just wait 10 years and you will own the airline. Just wait and you guys will get a contract.

So you think your boy the Judge is going to be able to stop the Section 6 process. The company already told the union they don't have any problem with the east opening Section 6. The mediator from the NMB is on board also.........so lets see how much deeper the Judge wants to get in the water! You boys out west have put your boy the Judge into uncharted waters.....this is starting to get fun to watch!

 

[EastUS]

Lastly; Given that the Nic's clearly so completely "fair and equitable", and offers no obscene windfall for the west whatsoever....how is it even remotely possible that extravagant litigation expenses....much less 7+ years of at best, complete west stagnation, shrinkage and/or worse, is worth spending in it's pursuit? :blink:

PS: I can't help but note that a great many west posters/speakers at various meetings/etc, have previously noted that they believe for everyone that it's, in the end, all about the money, and many west posters have postulated a massive sell-out by the east Captains in favor of pay increases/etc. What I'm wondering is how the hard core support of your own captains, with any real years of seniority, who wouldn't be at all badly treated via DOH is holding up in the face of an otherwise entirely isolated/seperate ops, shrinking west?

The west is "naturally" (And sadly, True-to-Form), clearly hopeful that east LOA issues will all be resolved by way of crushing company triumphs over their "fellow pilots" out east. What happens to the actually senior west support for nic-or-nothing, should you folks find yourselves very disappointed, by way of actual union success in any east pay restoration issues?

I could be wrong..but I'd guess you've a far, far higher percentage of people out west who'd sell their young out in a heartbeat for their personal gains than currently exist out east. What I can't help but observe is that the vast majority of west posters here have little to no actual years of real seniority. What are the feelings among yours that actually have been around awhile? Just some food for thought.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

We've all our personal opinions, to be sure. When all's said and done though....the west simply can NOT ever obtain any single contract, any escape from the dwindling west flying market/etc..without the voted consent of the east....period. Based on economic trends, the regional yields, reduction trends...and a capricious management that views employees as liabilities and has no hesitation about putting people on the street....well, I honestly mean no cruelty here but, as things are going; How much of the west do you really think will even be here in 3 plus years?...4?/etc?

I sure hope the obsession with the nic will prove worth it for all concerned.

Well there has yet to be a vote of any kind, just lots of chest thumping, on both sides. And by all appearances, it looks like the judge will not take away a persons right to vote on an agreement. However, the nic list will be in any ta in the future, and the fact remains that a federal judges order is a different animal than prater and parkers waffling.

As to the factors out west, well ok, it is what it is. What usapa would have liked to have done with the list and contract sure would not improve my lot in life nor that of the majority of my coworkers, so there is nothing to be gained by capitulating. And yes, I believe capitulating is the proper term.

Let's just see how things transpire from here.