US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Richard]

Time for a new thread for the week--although a day late.

As a reminder, personal comments, remarks attacks and name calling are NOT permitted--such posts will be deleted and the posters suspended without warning.

Also--throwing accident histories against each other in arguing experience, while valid for other discussions, is not appropriate for this labor issue--please refrain from going there again.

As a final reminder, flaming will not be tolerated at any time--

PLEASE THINK BEFORE YOU POST......

 

[prechilill]

Will we ever have productive leadership at USAPA? Or can we expect more of the same misguided ideals driving us off a cliff for the next nine years? How much is enough to understand final and binding is... FINAL AND BINDING? When do you all want to lay down your daggers and perhaps begin treating the west pilots with respect, or at least as fellow professional airmen and give them the opportunity to participate equally? When is the average east pilot going to demand truth and transparency from their own union leaders? You guys changed the union name, but when will you realize nothing else has changed? Change comes from within. Your problems are from within. Figure it out- it's pretty simple.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

ex-hp fa:
"As I sit here right now I am not aware of any expedited process that exists for this case under present law and procedure. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. That said I would expect an 11-14 month time frame for any such appeal to be resolved, assuming that the 9th Circuit accepts the appeal."


I think your time frame is about right for a final decision on an appeal but I can't imagine why there is no expedited appeal process available to USAPA given the nature of this case. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has been known as "labor friendly" It is the most liberal Federal Appeals Court in the country.

 

[prechilill]

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has been known as "labor friendly" It is the most liberal Federal Appeals Court in the country.[/color]

So your appeal is going to be a slam dunk!!! Just like the DFR. Just like the C18. Just like DOH arbitration...

 

[Piedmont1984]

I am reminded of the Columbia tragedy. For months afterward, highly educated, trained and experienced NASA engineers held to the claim that light weight foam insulation could not possibly have punched a hole in the shuttle's wing. And then they did the math and conducted actual tests - which left them all stunned. It boiled down to simple physics.

We need to do some simple math here as well. What are the costs - direct and indirect - of continuing the fight. I fly with F/O's all the time who could hold the left seat but choose not to for quality of life reasons. While those F/O's who would choose to upgrade at the earliest opportunity need to have some reliable data. How much exactly will the Nic delay their upgrade? How much money does that translate to compared with an industry standard contract? How much is a delayed contract costing them while we go the appeal route - particularly those who are hurting the most like the E190 F/O's?

Time for the BPR to solicit some feedback and provide some realistic scenarios.

No more best case scenarios and optimistic predictions. Hoping for the best is not a strategy.

KV

 

[UtterlyUdder]

So your appeal is going to be a slam dunk!!! Just like the DFR. Just like the C18. Just like DOH arbitration...

I didn't say that, you did. If you know anything at all about the 9th Circuit, you would know that they are a very liberal court.

 

[nostradamus]

The results of the jury trial and the lack of understanding of labor law shown by the court, is the quintessential example for the necessity of the Federal Court of Appeals. It is obvious that the defendants were setting up for the Appeals Court process from the beginning, this venue disregards local emotion and politics and will apply the law to its decision.

Keep your checkbooks handy, there is a long road ahead.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Nicolau will never be the seniority list at US Airways. The reason for this fact may evolve over time but the end result will always be the same. This sounds like trolling or whatever but it is not. I'm am calmly saying that under no circumstances would anyone I know vote for a contract with Nicolau. Period. Now the west is equally entrenched in their position so where does that leave us. The courts remedy is already clear and just sends us back to square one which will eventually lead to another binding arbitration, about seven years from now. The west has the law on their side but so does the east in that Nicolau only becomes effective with a ratified contract. It is a stale mate. It was 2 years ago and it is today. Not one damn thing has changed. If USAPA prevailed and appeals were exhausted. east could have moved forward with a DOH cramdown, but the reverse is not true. What am I missing? Can't we just move forward with seperate contract negotiations for east and west? or does TA prevent this. It is a waste of time to debate who is right. Both sides are within their rights to block any progress and that means no possibility for a joint contract. Must we waste more time going through the motions? Negotiate 2 identical contracts with seperate ops, seperate seniority, seperate growth etc... Many questions would have to be answered but don't waste any more time telling me why It will be Nicolau or DOH because it will never be either.

 

[exB717Flyer]

What does "labor friendly" have to do with anything? This suit isn't anti-union. It's anti rogue union.

 

[ClueByFour]

I didn't say that, you did. If you know anything at all about the 9th Circuit, you would know that they are a very liberal court.

You do know that liberals, in general, are more apt to protect a minority group from the tyranny of the majority group, right?

Just so we all recall that this particular outcome is no surprise to thinking folk:

Of course, the last thing ALPA will do is submit the Nic award to the company. And then any successor is stuck with it. A point often lost on those who think that having a new union is going to change the outcome of the award.

 

[flyboeing737]

Nicolau will never be the seniority list at US Airways.

Why don't you wait to see what the judge has to say before making these assumptions. My bet is NIC will be the list real soon. The judge is not going to have a remedy that allows a stalemate. NIC is the list. Binding Arbitration means it sticks.

If all the west join the union I can assure you that a 30% raise on the East will generate enough votes to pass the contract.

It's time to move on.

 

[Captain Underpants]

We need to do some simple math here as well.

Read the Nicolau "AWARD" section word for word....It doesn't say what the west pilots assume it says. Understand the bargaining rights of USAPA under the RLA, the voting rights of the pilots and how the contract regulates seniority.......The court ruling has not solved and will slightly complicate the multiple fairness issues to be addressed in the CBA.

The positive side is most West pilots will join the union now and pay back dues to asssure their voting rights to protect their interests. That is the extent of their "victory".

An appeal may be fun but not really necessary.

underpants

 

[Captain Underpants]

Nicolau will never be the seniority list at US Airways. The reason for this fact may evolve over time but the end result will always be the same. This sounds like trolling or whatever but it is not. I'm am calmly saying that under no circumstances would anyone I know vote for a contract with Nicolau. Period. Now the west is equally entrenched in their position so where does that leave us. The courts remedy is already clear and just sends us back to square one which will eventually lead to another binding arbitration, about seven years from now. The west has the law on their side but so does the east in that Nicolau only becomes effective with a ratified contract. It is a stale mate. It was 2 years ago and it is today. Not one damn thing has changed. If USAPA prevailed and appeals were exhausted. east could have moved forward with a DOH cramdown, but the reverse is not true. What am I missing? Can't we just move forward with seperate contract negotiations for east and west? or does TA prevent this. It is a waste of time to debate who is right. Both sides are within their rights to block any progress and that means no possibility for a joint contract. Must we waste more time going through the motions?

Well said I agree completely.

Negotiate 2 identical contracts with seperate ops, seperate seniority, seperate growth etc... Many questions would have to be answered but don't waste any more time telling me why It will be Nicolau or DOH because it will never be either.

Yes and that is exactly what the company wants to do (as if they had a choice anyway).

underpants

 

[hp_fa]

I think your time frame is about right for a final decision on an appeal but I can't imagine why there is no expedited appeal process available to USAPA given the nature of this case. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has been known as "labor friendly" It is the most liberal Federal Appeals Court in the country.[/color]

The reason is that any non-prevailing party in a trial court believes that their case is the most important possible case to be resolved on appeal and all think they should be the first case that the Court of Appeals should consider. In this case I am not aware of any federal question or any other factor that would cause me to think that the 9th Circuit will expedite and review of the case. If something comes up that causes me to revise my opinion I will be glad to opine to that here and in public. However, as of now, I don't see it.

If it is any solace to anyone on the East side, I believe that the Court of Appeals will accept jurisdiction and review the various rulings that may be raised on appeal. However, since I don't consider myself a fool, I won't opine on how that appeal may turn out until after I have had a chance to review whatever briefs are filed by the appellant (USAPA), the appellee (Addington, et al.), or any other interested third-party via an amicus brief. My personal opinion is that the most significant public policy issue raised in Judge Wake's court, specifically that a labor union cannot reform or make a new constitution in order to avoid a full and binding arbitration arbitration in favor of a numerically minority group, will be upheld. If there are one or more procedural infirmities the Court of Appeals will deal with them. However the most significant issue of public policy is whether arbitration results can be avoided after the result is delivered and that will be what this case will stand for during the years to come.

 

[Waketurbulence]

The courts remedy is already clear and just sends us back to square one which will eventually lead to another binding arbitration, about seven years from now.=

Oh really?

I wonder if you could show us what the courts remedy is since it is already clear?