US Pilot labor thread 10/12-10/18

[cleardirect]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, according to your friend, Jerry Glass, the only publicly stated reason for bankruptcy II was to interdict the unions. No mention of financial difficulties. The sole reason was to bring the pilots down to the pilots level at HP in a shallow attempt to ease a merger. That is all. Those of us who listened to management knew that the exercise was to fraudulently utilize bankruptcy laws to reduce labor costs. I know you cannot figure that out because you were not there. Talking with ALPOs will only give you reasons to "defend" their erroneous positions. You may wish to use some reasoning powers here.

The delusion from the east is stunning. You can not actually believe this. But then again you believe that USAPA is benevolent and really has the west’s best interest in mind.

Are you saying that you did not have 1700 pilots on furlough? That there was a plan in place to bring all of them back by 2007. That airplanes were not scheduled to leave the east property and a very rapid rate.

If you truly believed that your old management had “fraudulentlyâ€￾ used the bankruptcy laws only to lower your wages. Call someone, sue someone. Come on you east guys love to file suit. Lets see what someone based in reality has to say about your fantasy.

But making wild claims frankly just makes you sound ridiculous. There is absolutely no evidence to support your story. You are so obsessed with your hatred of ALPA you can not find reality.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The delusion from the east is stunning. You can not actually believe this. But then again you believe that USAPA is benevolent and really has the west’s best interest in mind.

Are you saying that you did not have 1700 pilots on furlough? That there was a plan in place to bring all of them back by 2007. That airplanes were not scheduled to leave the east property and a very rapid rate.

If you truly believed that your old management had “fraudulentlyâ€￾ used the bankruptcy laws only to lower your wages. Call someone, sue someone. Come on you east guys love to file suit. Lets see what someone based in reality has to say about your fantasy.

But making wild claims frankly just makes you sound ridiculous. There is absolutely no evidence to support your story. You are so obsessed with your hatred of ALPA you can not find reality.

Actually, I distinctly remember the first LGA LEC meeting after coming out of Bankruptcy One. The LEC chair gave us a briefing and said flat-out that he thought that Bankruptcy Two was inevitable since Bankruptcy One did not adequately address the compensation and work rules of several labor groups on the property which were still sucking what life blood might be left in the corporation. He figured we would be back in bankruptcy court within the year strictly to beat up on those groups. (He didn't include the pilots, because he thought we had given enough by then. What he didn't consider was that our compensation package was still far moe generous than our AWA colleagues, and that there needed to be another "adjustment.")

 

[boeingplt]

Nark

Just what was an east pilots career expectation pre-merger pre-Nicolau?

At the time of the merger you were in bankruptcy for the second time. Had 1700 pilots on furlough. Working under one of the worst contracts in the industry. So just who is misrepresenting their career expectations.

What were the career expectations of a Braniff pilot in 1970?.....TWA?.......Eastern?.....How about Mowhawk?....Allegheny?....Delta?....

If you were a young prospecting pilot in those days you would likely have made the wrong choices, that is simply how this biz rolls. For someone to tell me that they can accurately predict anyone's career expectations flys in the face of history.

 

[BoeingBoy]

While it's absolutely true that one of the accomplishments that US intended to achieve in BK2 was lower employee cost, it was not the only reason that the filing was made. To quote from US' filing:

With losses mounting, available cash declining, and defaults or cross defaults looming under the Debtors’ key agreements with the ATSB, GE, Bombardier, Embraer, American Express, Bank of America, and others, the Debtors had no practical alternative but to file for chapter 11 protection again in order to preserve their assets while attempting to complete implementation of the Transformation Plan.

Of most immediate concern, as I said on this forum at the time, was pension payments due to be made about a month after the BK filing - making those payments would trigger a chain reaction of defaults. First, the reduction in "cash" on hand (cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments) if the pension payments were made would result in US being in default of the terms of it's credit card processor agreement unless the amount of "hold back" were increased. Increasing the "hold back" would cause US to violate the "cash" requirements of the ATSB-backed loan. That could result in the loan being called, which would put US out of business - there would be no cash.

As for the employee concession targets, it's apparently forgotten by many that US wanted middle of the low cost carrier pack employee cost per ASM. 4 low cost carriers were used for comparison purposes - WN, HP, B6, and FL. WN had the highest employee cost/ASM of the 4, FL had the lowest, and HP/B6 were tied almost exactly in the middle. So the employee cost target became both HP and B6.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe this will remind some what was really happening and not a revised version of history.


Posted 5/19/2005 5:37 PM Updated 5/21/2005 7:03 PM


America West, US Airways merger goes for a tight fit

By Dan Reed and Barbara De Lollis, USA TODAY

America West Airlines said Thursday it will acquire US Airways, saving the beleaguered carrier from the possibility of a bankruptcy liquidation.

USA Today

 

[wopr21]

What were the career expectations of a Braniff pilot in 1970?.....TWA?.......Eastern?.....How about Mowhawk?....Allegheny?....Delta?....

If you were a young prospecting pilot in those days you would likely have made the wrong choices, that is simply how this biz rolls. For someone to tell me that they can accurately predict anyone's career expectations flys in the face of history.

Agreed.. One can not even predict if they will be in the same house in 5 years, but I do know one thing is that DOH is set in stone and is not a variable.

wopr

 

[luvthe9]

Maybe this will remind some what was really happening and not a revised version of history.


Posted 5/19/2005 5:37 PM Updated 5/21/2005 7:03 PM


America West, US Airways merger goes for a tight fit

By Dan Reed and Barbara De Lollis, USA TODAY

America West Airlines said Thursday it will acquire US Airways, saving the beleaguered carrier from the possibility of a bankruptcy liquidation.

USA Today

Wrong again, On September 26, 2007, as part of the integration efforts following the merger of US Airways Group and America West Holdings Corporation (“America West Holdingsâ€￾) in September 2005, America West Airlines, Inc. (“AWAâ€￾) surrendered its Federal Aviation Administration (“FAAâ€￾) operating certificate. As a result, all mainline airline operations are now being conducted under US Airways’ FAA operating certificate. In connection with the combination of all mainline airline operations under one FAA operating certificate, US Airways Group contributed one hundred percent of its equity interest in America West Holdings to US Airways. As a result, America West Holdings and its wholly owned subsidiary AWA are now wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways. In addition, AWA transferred substantially all of its assets and liabilities to US Airways. All off-balance sheet commitments of AWA were also transferred to US Airways. This transaction constituted a transfer of assets between entities under common control and was accounted for at historical cost.
AWA ARE WHOLLY OWN SUBSIDIARIES OF USAIRWAYS, not that it matters From the SEC 10-Q report, not USA today get a life and get over it!!!!!!!!!

 

[hp_fa]

The US Airways that existed prior to the close of bankruptcy #2 died when bankruptcy #2 was completed. The stock in that company ceased to exist and there was no value in any of the common stock held by it's common stock shareholders.. A new company was created as a subsidiary of America West Holdings and it took the name of the former US Airways, which was an asset of the former US Airways.

Corporations are creatures of legal statutes. The airline formerly known as US Airways, pre-merger, died. At this point I suspect that the folks in Tempe wish they had renamed the new airline something other than US Airways.

 

[westcoastflyer]

Wrong again, On September 26, 2007, as part of the integration efforts following the merger of US Airways Group and America West Holdings Corporation (“America West Holdingsâ€￾) in September 2005, America West Airlines, Inc. (“AWAâ€￾) surrendered its Federal Aviation Administration (“FAAâ€￾) operating certificate. As a result, all mainline airline operations are now being conducted under US Airways’ FAA operating certificate. In connection with the combination of all mainline airline operations under one FAA operating certificate, US Airways Group contributed one hundred percent of its equity interest in America West Holdings to US Airways. As a result, America West Holdings and its wholly owned subsidiary AWA are now wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways. In addition, AWA transferred substantially all of its assets and liabilities to US Airways. All off-balance sheet commitments of AWA were also transferred to US Airways. This transaction constituted a transfer of assets between entities under common control and was accounted for at historical cost.
AWA ARE WHOLLY OWN SUBSIDIARIES OF USAIRWAYS, not that it matters From the SEC 10-Q report, not USA today get a life and get over it!!!!!!!!!

Will you guys EVER get over this issue of who bought who? What a waste of time and energy; it's done and over--past history. No forward progress is made while continually looking backwards.

 

[HonuFly]

Will you guys EVER get over this issue of who bought who? What a waste of time and energy; it's done and over--past history. No forward progress is made while continually looking backwards.

The easties have such good revisionist recollections that is why this is rehashed many times.
One last time- BOTH usairways and America West went away on 9-27-05 REPLACED by Usairways HOLDING GROUP, a new company.
For SEC accounting purposes America West is the ACQUIRING company.
America West stock holders kept their stock (got transfered to LCC)
Usair stock holders lost their shirts.
HF

 

[fodase]

From usapawatch.com



"Please explain to us your words from this weeks NAC update. We appreciate the semi-detailed summary of your week at the table, but we are curious as to why you didn't mention managements response to your DOH seniority list. You seemed to have covered every other important section, but you missed the one section on which your whole shame of an association is based; DOH.

We already know that US Airways management told you that they're not interested in the list you tried to pass them. Why aren't you telling this to your membership? Why aren't you telling your membership that management wouldn't touch the list when you put it on the table and they told your committee along with your merger committee that they already accepted a list? What are you hiding? Are you afraid the truth will be exposed?

We must remind our readers (over 2000 per week) that the one subject on which they base their entire existence wasn't even worth a mention in their NAC update. Why the oversight Mr. DiOrio? You ask us below to look at what management does at the table. Well, what did they do with the list you passed them?

And last but not least, Mr. DiOrio ends his update with a plea for an illegal job action to extort management at the table. Just what do you mean Mr. DiOrio when you ask your membership (less than 50% of all US Airways pilots per Department of Labor filings) to be Good Union Pilots?

"Stay informed, read the USAPA and NAC Updates, check out the NAC Quick Reference Guide, watch for the “Lead Balloonsâ€￾ in the USAPA Updates and if you haven’t read the NAC Chairman’s Letter to the Pilots regarding “Expectations,â€￾ please do so. You can find it on the crew room bulletin board or on the USAPA web site. As always, we remind you to look at what Management does (at the table), not what they say.

Fly safe and be Good Union Pilots."

 

[cleardirect]

Will you guys EVER get over this issue of who bought who? What a waste of time and energy; it's done and over--past history. No forward progress is made while continually looking backwards.

It is a very important issue that needs to be addressed. It goes directly to the question of career expectations.

The biggest problem is that the east want to use the current situation as their and the west pre-merger expectations. The problem with that is post merger both expectations have changed.

The east needs to be reminded what reality was and what their pre merger expectation were. Not some revisionist version of reality.

 

[boeingplt]

From usapawatch.com



We already know that US Airways management told you that they're not interested in the list you tried to pass them. Why aren't you telling this to your membership? Why aren't you telling your membership that management wouldn't touch the list when you put it on the table

This is the second reference from USAPAwatch suggesting they know what is being said at the table. Any chance the nice folks over there have the stones to substantiate their ridiculous cliams?

 

[Phoenix]

From usapawatch.com

.... Just what do you mean Mr. DiOrio when you ask your membership (less than 50% of all US Airways pilots per Department of Labor filings) to be Good Union Pilots?

Did ya ever think it might include things like "stay informed", "vote on issues", "pay your dues", "be respectful", "don't hang dolls in the cockpit" and "dispose of your.. ehem.. by means other than an envelope"?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Did ya ever think it might include things like "stay informed", "vote on issues", "pay your dues", "be respectful", "don't hang dolls in the cockpit" and "dispose of your.. ehem.. by means other than an envelope"?

By staying informed, do you mean staying informed the usap way? ie: one sided and with an obvious east bias?

If you mean that kind of "staying informed," well then, no thank you very much.

Why is it that there is zero two-way communication via the usap website? Hmmmm? Why no web board over there? Ever stopped to think about that? Or would you rather have your leaders continue their tip toe parade through the tulips completely ignorant of the ground swell of opposition forming beneath them.

I also enjoyed your "be respectful" comment. Now that's destined to become a classic. Do ya really think you have earned our respect? Whew, you guys are further out there than anyone knew.....way further.

Not Respectfully Submitted,