US Pilots Labor Thread 2/9-2/16

[ddcharlie]

Actually, according to the corporate structure you do still work for America West. Just as the MDA pilots worked for US Airways Services Corporation (dba Midatlantic Airways), the PSA pilots work for PSA airlines, and the PDT pilots work for Piedmont Airlines.

Jim

Actually MDA pilots worked for USAirways not a fictional division.

 

[kubotapilot]

Jim,

You need to get your facts straight.

The "MDA" you speak of was USAirways. Yup, on the Certificate, same EIN, same, and I use this term very loosly "Collective Bargaining Agent" with same council reps etc... Several of the E170 pilots held LEC, Negotiating and other commitee offices with USAirways.

With all of your vast knowlege, can you explain why there weren't any Piedmont / Allegheny wholly owned pilots in these positions?

The initial paychecks, employee id numbers etc...of the improperly recalled pilots flying the 170's ALL were original USAirways.

BTW, what was the actual shell corporate structure of MDA was merged with USAirways in February, 2004. Just prior to revenue ops.

This and a boatload of additional information will be exposed as the case progresses.

Actually, according to the corporate structure you do still work for America West. Just as the MDA pilots worked for US Airways Services Corporation (dba Midatlantic Airways), the PSA pilots work for PSA airlines, and the PDT pilots work for Piedmont Airlines.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

I like Cleardirect's post. Sometimes they are too long, other times they are too many, but in general Clear is more on target than most and definitely more informed than I. As to LeCarre's ghost writers, not sure he has any.

Over 300 flamethrowing posts since joining last May, all "informational," of course. I noticed something about LeCarre after listening to his BPR presentation. This is not meant as a criticism. I respect anyone who can master English as a second language as well as he has. I also respect anyone who appreciates the rights and responsbilities of becoming a US Citizen in his 40s, but the talking Brice doesnt sound like the writing Brice.

But I do have a question. Has anyone out east considered the possibility that Brice's resolution regarding the Cactus 18 had the best intrest of USAPA as its motivation?
Ever given any thought to the idea that since Brice is West and closer to the 18, that he may have a better view of the massive pile of BS building over USAPA's head and he is trying to help you out from under it, knowing that if it falls it will be much harder to clean up later.

Nic4, the Jon-written resolution was loaded with a massive pile of BS, misstatements and fighitng words to the point that USAPA had to reply. If LeCarres resolution was meant to be in the best interests of USAPA, he didnt think it through. Rather than bring us together, it pushed us apart. His in-person demeanor at the meeting didnt match the language in the resolution. The resolution made it clear he didnt understand anything about the case. A few questions he couldnt answer made it clear he didnt even understand his own resolution. Ive already posted the mispresentations. Maybe hes too close to the AWAPPA radicals to present a resolution that brings us together. They dont want this to end. They want to continue the martyrdom.

I still think the solution is to join, pay up and then see if USAPA continues to sue a union member in good standing. As much as I respect this union, if they dont drop members in good standing from the suit, I have to be concerned about their agenda.

"Since the first offer was made, the Board has since passed a resolution dropping any request for payment beyond actual damage done and even that is limited to a maximum of $500; many would probably pay less."

Your C-17 refuse to settle. So what is their agenda? Obviously not to get this behind them. "Many would probably pay less." OJ had a choice, simple asault, maybe 6 months in jail. He chose plan B and now hes looking at 18+ years in jail. This isnt a criminal case, but paying actual expanses, most less than $500, as opposed to huge legal fees? The agenda is obvious. Keep parading the martyrs.
http://el-snoopo@Rosascantina.mx

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

You need to get your facts straight.

If those "facts" are what you're counting on to win the MDA suit, don't hold your breath.

Yes, PSA & PDT are different because they have their own ops certs - a distinction to the FAA and not the SEC. For SEC purposes, PSA & PDT are wholly-owned subdivisions of US Group whereas US Airways Services Corporation (dba Midatlantic Airways) was a wholly-owned subdivision of US Inc.

US Airways Services Corporation was eventually merged into US Inc, but that occurred after MDA started operation (don't know where your Feb 2004 date came from). It was merged in time for Glass to testify at the MDA change of control grievance hearing that there wasn't a MDA but that it was part of US Airways Inc (mainline).

There's no doubt about it - Glass and the company play the MEC like a fiddle. Having MDA as a separate division of US while it suited their purposes but merging MDA with US when it became advantageous for the change of control grievance.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

I still think the solution is to join, pay up and then see if USAPA continues to sue a union member in good standing. As much as I respect this union, if they dont drop members in good standing from the suit, I have to be concerned about their agenda.

Well Snoop. It is time to be very concerned about your union and their agenda.

 

[nostradamus]

Before the airline pilots association (alpa) was booted off the USairways property, having held the honor of representing USairways pilots, they attempted to put one of the local PHL unions in receivership for defending their rights and those of the MDA pilots.



PHL update for June 2007

cc my boyhood friend in the DOJ

 

[Megasnoop]

Well Snoop. It is time to be very concerned about your union and their agenda.

Clear, all Vasin has to do is ask. Im sure hed be dropped. Vasin must have a deep pocket, willing to roll the dice. Evidently he and the other 16 would rather martyr themselves than just join, pay and sign off. Ive talked with my BPRs and our national oficers. Theyve all told me that all it takes is to join, pay up and admit was you did. Thats their agenda. Im comfortable with that. But none of your radicals deserve a free pass on this. You dont get relief from a lawsuit by doing nothing. Im satisfied and in full support with how theyre handling this.
http://jon.garcia.org

 

[kubotapilot]

Sorry Jim,

The "Special Services Corporation" you speak of was a shell corp specifically set up to handle payroll services for MDA and the wholly owned carriers. It was used to funnel the payroll funds and cut the "MDA" payroll checks after several months of operations. It had NOTHING to do with MDA beyond that because MDA was USAirways. It still exists today and handles payroll for Piedmont / PSA etc... They are working out of a sweat shop in Harrisburg PA.

The FAA will testify along with many others including Mr. Glass.

Can you explain why MDA was shut down for a few weeks prior to startup by the FAA and forced to rewrite all training manuals, procedures etc... to conform to USAirways certificate ? Almost ALL of the 170 material was incorporated into the 190 program we have today, VERBATUM. Callsign was USAir, Release was sabre USAir, FDML was USAir....ad nauseum.


We will see when the case reaches court, just like the Addington case. It is going to be an interesting year ahead.

If those "facts" are what you're counting on to win the MDA suit, don't hold your breath.

Yes, PSA & PDT are different because they have their own ops certs - a distinction to the FAA and not the SEC. For SEC purposes, PSA & PDT are wholly-owned subdivisions of US Group whereas US Airways Services Corporation (dba Midatlantic Airways) was a wholly-owned subdivision of US Inc.

US Airways Services Corporation was eventually merged into US Inc, but that occurred after MDA started operation (don't know where your Feb 2004 date came from). It was merged in time for Glass to testify at the MDA change of control grievance hearing that there wasn't a MDA but that it was part of US Airways Inc (mainline).

There's no doubt about it - Glass and the company play the MEC like a fiddle. Having MDA as a separate division of US while it suited their purposes but merging MDA with US when it became advantageous for the change of control grievance.

Jim

 

[sharktooth]

Guess not, you imbeciles are about to elect those alpa guys responsible for loa 93 to lead that joke of a union.

GJ, former FO rep from BOS, is running? Wow! Who would have thonk?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry Jim,

The "Special Services Corporation" you speak of was a shell corp specifically set up to handle payroll services for MDA and the wholly owned carriers. It was used to funnel the payroll funds and cut the "MDA" payroll checks after several months of operations. It had NOTHING to do with MDA beyond that because MDA was USAirways. It still exists today and handles payroll for Piedmont / PSA etc... They are working out of a sweat shop in Harrisburg PA.

That may all be true, but "Special Services Corp" wasn't the wholly-owned entity I was talking about. It was US Airways Services Corp that was in SEC filings and registered with the Delaware Division of Corporations.

Can you explain why MDA was shut down....

Because it was going to operate on the US certificate. No different than America West Airlines, a wholly-owned subdivision of America West Holdings, which itself is a wholly-owned subdivision of US - different corporate entities operating on the same ops certificate.

Now, can you explain why a MDA exec (along with execs from US Group, US, Inc, PSA, Allegheny, Piedmont, US Airways Leasing & Sales Inc, and Material Services Company Inc) signed the 1st amendment to the ATSB loan agreement during the 2nd quarter of 2004 when you claim that MDA ceased to exist as a corporate entity in Feb 2004?

Don't get me wrong - MDA should have been mainline from the moment that it was decided to operate it on the mainline certificate. It should have been mainline when our friend USA320Pilot was on USAviation giving the MEC talking points about MDA being separate and not another "real" mainline pilot besides myself was saying anything in opposition. MDA should have been mainline when MDA pilots were being turned down for jumpseat because the "real" mainline pilots didn't know who MDA was. MDA should have been mainline when many "real" mainline pilots were upset that the MDA pilots would have the gall to sue "their fellow pilots".

"Should have been" is different from "was" however.

It is amusing to see so many people that couldn't have cared less about MDA when it was operating now claim that "MDA was mainline all along" and "Everyone knew it was mainline all along" now that the suit has the potential to overturn the Nic award.

Jim

 

[sharktooth]

It is amusing to see so many people that couldn't have cared less about MDA when it was operating now claim that "MDA was mainline all along" and "Everyone knew it was mainline all along" now that the suit has the potential to overturn the Nic award.

That is a grossly unfair statement.

Many of us who actually flew the line felt that MDA was part of mainline. The FO rep (MT) in PHL assured me many times that MDA was mainline, no question.

The fact that ALPA allowed US management to manipulate the characterization of MDA according to their whims was simply another in the long list of nails in ALPA's coffin.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

That may all be true, but "Special Services Corp" wasn't the wholly-owned entity I was talking about. It was US Airways Services Corp that was in SEC filings and registered with the Delaware Division of Corporations.



Because it was going to operate on the US certificate. No different than America West Airlines, a wholly-owned subdivision of America West Holdings, which itself is a wholly-owned subdivision of US - different corporate entities operating on the same ops certificate.

Now, can you explain why a MDA exec (along with execs from US Group, US, Inc, PSA, Allegheny, Piedmont, US Airways Leasing & Sales Inc, and Material Services Company Inc) signed the 1st amendment to the ATSB loan agreement during the 2nd quarter of 2004 when you claim that MDA ceased to exist as a corporate entity in Feb 2004?

Don't get me wrong - MDA should have been mainline from the moment that it was decided to operate it on the mainline certificate. It should have been mainline when our friend USA320Pilot was on USAviation giving the MEC talking points about MDA being separate and not another "real" mainline pilot besides myself was saying anything in opposition. MDA should have been mainline when MDA pilots were being turned down for jumpseat because the "real" mainline pilots didn't know who MDA was. MDA should have been mainline when many "real" mainline pilots were upset that the MDA pilots would have the gall to sue "their fellow pilots".

"Should have been" is different from "was" however.

It is amusing to see so many people that couldn't have cared less about MDA when it was operating now claim that "MDA was mainline all along" and "Everyone knew it was mainline all along" now that the suit has the potential to overturn the Nic award.

Jim

"was" instead of "should have been", is simply because of ALPA's failure to represent. ALPA compounded its problem by allegedly jiggering with the the merger process to protect itself legally in that case. The lawsuit started well before Nic and was amended to include it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The lawsuit started well before Nic and was amended to include it.

Yes it did, and I well remember the "real" mainline pilots that (or whom if you're UU) expressed their anger at those uppity MDA pilots who had the gall to file that suit. I remember the F/O's I flew with asking if I knew anything about some outfit called MDA and why their pilots were suing "us". As I said in the earlier post, I remember the MDA pilots that said they weren't allowed on a mainline jumpseat because the Captain didn't have a clue who MDA was.

Until the Nic award came out. That's when the "Everybody always knew..." started.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

I still think the solution is to join, pay up and then see if USAPA continues to sue a union member in good standing. As much as I respect this union, if they dont drop members in good standing from the suit, I have to be concerned about their agenda.

Why in the world would they do that when they are winning?

The solution is to beat the appeal and come back after the association for legal fees.

Moreoever, think of it like this: apparently the Cactus 18 have it figured out: don't negotiate with bullies or terrorists?

Your C-17 refuse to settle. So what is their agenda? Obviously not to get this behind them.

Negative. They are defending themselves against a suit USAPA filed.

The right thing to do is to drop the appeal. Of course, that would be admitting the massive foxtrot uniform that the Angry FO committed.

 

[jetjok1]

Old habits, possibly?

Anyway, future updates may be addressed the same way or Brice may see some irratation it causes you and address the West with a different title. Does the West have a council number? Perhaps he could use that.

But while on this topic the West feeling is that in many ways we still work for AWA just as the East seems to think they still work for AAA.

We still see AWA on our paychecks. We still use our original P# for company business. We still have the same CEO,CFO, President, etc... all working in the same building. I am not trying to get in your face with these observations, I am just offering an explanation of why Brice used "America West Pilots" in his salutation.

Sensibilities such as this will diminish over time as we learn what upsets the other side. Recently I read a retraction/apology from a female journalist who was sorry for calling the West "less experienced" who informed her of her faux pas ? USAPA, pretty minor thing but not unnoticed.

Nic4,

Alas! I think you're right. We still are working for 2 airlines. Go to Usairways website and America West still appears. There are more problems with this "embarrassment" than just the pilot differences. Too Bad, it could have been good. I've worked for both and I'm disgusted with the whole thing. The only good thing out of this has been the friendships I've developed at both the East and West sides. Friendships I will hold on to forever regardless what happens to this excuse of an airline.