US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[Nicstolemyjob]

1000 Commerce Drive W110 Pittsburgh, PA 15275
Phone: 412-747-9579 Fax: 412-747-9572
Look familiar?

And the same logic regarding west pilots who are paid by AmericaWest Airlines applies.

You can bold the word furloughed all day..they were...right up until the began work at MDA/USAirways...then they ceased to be furloughed.

End of story.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

US had an MDA Division for mechanics that had an IAM CBA, but in cities like CLT, mainline mechanics and rampers worked the planes.

You mean similiar to THIS "division" of USAirways?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetroJet

ALSO using the same operating certificate? That was staffed by USAirways MAINLINE pilots and FA's?

hmmmm.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

And Jim...I have a question for you since you seem intrigued.

Tell me, under the scope provisions governing who may pilot any aircraft owned by USAirways on their certificate...who is expressly allowed to operate said aircraft?...and who is not?

This is a certificate-specific question...not "brand or division" question.

 

[700UW]

Metrojet on the IAM side did not have a seperate CBA, it was worked under the mainline CBA, and there were not changes made to accommodate metrojet

 

[BoeingBoy]

then they ceased to be furloughed.

End of story.

While I've always said that the MDA folks should have been active mainline employees, they were not treated as such and that muddies the waters considerably. You can stamp your feet and say "End of story" all you want, but a court will eventually decide one way or the other. Until then, it's definitely not the "end of story."

In the meantime, a few questions...

- Say a junior mainline FO had been bumped to LGA - could he/she bid the 170 in PIT?

- If a senior 170 Capt wanted to be a junior FO in BOS, could he/she bid that?

- Did the 170 pilots work under the mainline contract?

Jim

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Metrojet on the IAM side did not have a seperate CBA, it was worked under the mainline CBA, and there were not changes made to accommodate metrojet

Even making my point moreso...although I'm only loosly interested in the IAM side of things.

(think B scale then....same airline...same certificate...different "brand"....no matter)

http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/stor.../25/story4.html

Same exact conditions as MDA who RECALLED FURLOUGHED pilots to operate aircraft on their certificate...regardless of the name.

As the courts will soon show.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

And Jim...I have a question for you since you seem intrigued.

Tell me, under the scope provisions governing who may pilot any aircraft owned by USAirways on their certificate...who is expressly allowed to operate said aircraft?...and who is not?

This is a certificate-specific question...not "brand or division" question.

Answer my question.

Its the only one that matters...what the company would or wouldn't allow does not create "law".

Metrojet was biddable...with different payscales and work rules....flown by USAirways pilots on the USAirways certificate.

ONLY USAirways pilots may operate aircraft on it's certificate...the 170's were on AAA's certificate.
The rest is fluff and a smoke screen...and I hope you had no role in it with ALPA.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

While I've always said that the MDA folks should have been active mainline employees, they were not treated as such and that muddies the waters considerably. You can stamp your feet and say "End of story" all you want, but a court will eventually decide one way or the other. Until then, it's definitely not the "end of story."

In the meantime, a few questions...

- Say a junior mainline FO had been bumped to LGA - could he/she bid the 170 in PIT?

- If a senior 170 Capt wanted to be a junior FO in BOS, could he/she bid that?

- Did the 170 pilots work under the mainline contract?

Jim

Hey...your logic of "treatment by the company" setting legalities is fascinating....

You're smarter than that. It doesn't matter how they were treated, or what the company "denied them"...

Think the company deleting page 4 of LOA93 from the HUB makes it go away too?

 

[Metroyet]

Jesus, just when I thought the inmates couldn't get any crazier....the CLT update comes out. Superman's Bizzaro World made a hell of a lot more sense than this drivel...

Remember, this "update" is just one solitary guy at his computer. It's no more real than any post on this forum.

Never forget that we are all in this together. We are only as strong as our weakest link. We must remain focused on the goal of an industry-standard or better contract and the goals that you have established in the USAPA Constitution and Bylaws. We all know that we have those that doubt the resolve of our pilots – we must stick together and educate those doubters that there is a new way of doing business at US Airways. The line pilot is once again running the show. Those that attempt to get in the way of these goals that you have established are in fact traitors. We must never succumb to the past, as it has proven nothing but failure to our group. Be strong, be committed, and most of all, look after each other. We are now a real union; let’s show the disbelievers how this is supposed to work.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Answer my question.

Sorry, I didn't see it till you repeated it.

Scope says "all present and future" flying performed by the company or US Airways Group (including any air carrier controlled, operated or partly or wholly owned by the Company or US Airways Group, whether directly or indirectly) shall be performed by pilots on the US Airways seniority list in accordance with the agreement (i.e., contract). A subsequent section of the scope provisions exempt express flying. If you can find the word "certificate" in there, more power to you. Also, are not furloughed pilots "on the US Airways seniority list"? So the scope language is satisfied two ways - Express is exempted and the 170 pilots, though furloughed from mainline, were "on the US Airways seniority list".

If you want to get into legalities, the Restructuring Agreement which created MDA does not say that MDA would be staffed by pilots recalled from furlough. It says pilots are entitled to return to US Airways when recalled unless they're being held at MDA or J4J carriers. If already recalled by virtue of being at MDA, how can being held at MDA postpone accepting recall?

It says that qualification to be hired at MDA was being on the APL, which is defined as being furloughed or notified of impending furlough (then CEL pilots and new hires if necessary to fill vacancies). If MDA was mainline, why did you have to be furloughed to work there (except CEL/new hires)?

You know what the real kicker is? Nowhere does the contract say that MDA will or must have it's own operating certificate. I know - that was the original intent, but the contract doesn't require it.

As for you Metrojet argument - apples and oranges. Metrojet was never a separate of US Group - MDA was. Metrojet never operated under a separate contract - MDA did. Pilots could bid into and out of Metrojet positions - MDA pilots couldn't bid any mainline equipment and active mainline pilots couldn't bid the 170. In short, Metrojet was just another mainline job - MDA wasn't. Not based on "how the company treated it" but based on the contract, which was approved by the pilot group.

Likewise you mentioned something about "the same" as America West. Again apples and oranges. AW operating on the same certificate is a product of the merger - at some point the FAA grants a SOC and in this case the contract and seniority aren't settled so two divisions of US Group are operating on one certificate. Once operational integration occurs, the AW division should cease. Just as the Allegheny division (the Express ALQ) ceased to exist once the integration with PDT was complete. Just as the Shuttle division ceased to exist once integration was complete. Just as the PI division ceased to exist once the integration was complete (to be reborn when the renamed the wholly-owned carriers after the forebearers Allegheny/PSA/Piedmont). Just as the PSA division ceased to exist after the integration was complete (ditto being resurrected).

MDA was set up as a separate division from the start. It was not a temporary situation due to a merger.

You know what's really ironic about all this? As I understand it, ALPA is the sole remaining defendant in the MDA suit. Yet it was ALPA, and only ALPA, that considered the 170 pilots recalled to US Airways. The 170 pilots were still listed as working for AAA, not MDA. Why do you think they could hold positions on the MEC and vote on issues just like other active AAA pilots. It wasn't because the MEC gave them a break - it was because ALPA said that they were AAA pilots in good standing. It was the MEC, the pilot group, the company that treated them as furloughed via the contract, yet none of those are defendants.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

You know what the real kicker is? Nowhere does the contract say that MDA will or must have it's own operating certificate. I know - that was the original intent, but the contract doesn't require it.

GAME, SET, MATCH- BOEING BOY.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

A well rehearsed response there, Jim. I'd point to a few problems with it though. There may be more, but I'm not a party to the suit...others who are can elaborate further.

1) Applicants must be furloughed, wholly owned, or from the street.
who else is there, Jim?

2) There's the pesky prior sworn testimony on record that conflicts with
your eloquent prose.


And I'm sure I understand why prechillil would stay up into the wee hours of the morning to gloat over her perceived winner here...it's because she wants to help us stupid east pilots get over this...right?

Or maybe she's still worried about her seniority? (MDA factor)

Or she's using her union communications skillset more frequently?

No matter...gotta fly.

 

[cleardirect]

Nicely explained Boeing Boy.

Once again east pilots grasping at straws. Another disappointment for sometime next year.

Tiny problem with your glee and fantasy of killing the Nicolau list. That is not a remedy asked for by the plaintiffs.

This comes down to what it usually comes down to. MONEY! About $550,000 each.

If you are going to make up a story make sure the facts are not available.


SUPPLEMENTAL COUNT I
DUTY OF FAIR REPRESENTATION
[On Behalf of All Plaintiffs]
Damages Sought: One Hundred Seventy Five Million ($175,000,000.00) Dollars


a) On behalf of all Plaintiffs, against defendants AIR LINE
PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL and DUANE E. WOERTH, as President of Air Line Pilots Association, International, as to the claims set forth in Supplemental Count I, such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than One Hundred Seventy Five Million ($175,000,000.00) Dollars;
- together with the costs and disbursements of this action, applicable interest, attorneys’ fees, and such other and further relief as the Court may deem just and proper.
Dated: New York, New York
August 22, 2007

 

[Megasnoop]

A well rehearsed response there, Jim. I'd point to a few problems with it though. There may be more, but I'm not a party to the suit...others who are can elaborate further.
1) Applicants must be furloughed, wholly owned, or from the street.
who else is there, Jim?
2) There's the pesky prior sworn testimony on record that conflicts with
your eloquent prose.

And I'm sure I understand why prechillil would stay up into the wee hours of the morning to gloat over her perceived winner here...it's because she wants to help us stupid east pilots get over this...right?

Or maybe she's still worried about her seniority? (MDA factor)
Or she's using her union communications skillset more frequently?

Stole, Im not party to it either, but I just flew with a guy who is. If theirs more testimony in November, ALPA can call Jim in as an "expert" witness. Maybe he can counter that "pesky sworn statement."

700U can spout out, but he was in a different union, different set of rules. Lill? She can continue to be "prechi." One thing you see about Lill over the past few years, when shes threatened with a loser, shes all attack mode.

None will change the fact this lawsuit is between ALPA and MDA. ALPA is pulling every stop to delay until we're all replaced with mag-levs. They know they got a loser. Their typical MO is to stall when they got a loser. This is one we cant blame on Prater. The "certified" list came out under Woerth. For them its about losing a lot of money. For MDA pilots, its money and the bogus list. If ALPA loses, the list is in limbo. Thats what got those in the know out West in a tizzy. Bad part for them is theres nothing they can do about it. They need their USAPA DFR wrapped up before the MDA final decision. Lill, that wont happen. One more reason it makes sense for USAPA to play this out.

Where a bogus list goes, no one can tell. JMHO (opinions are like assumptions, everyones got one), thats a big West headache and has been even before the Nic result came out. The East MC had no choice except to present the list that ALPA National gave them. After all, it was "certified." With a bogus ALPA list "certified" by a court as being bogus, the entire award comes into question. The MDA DFR is down to one count. I hear thats all about money, but a monetary award can only happen if ALPA is proven liable. If ALPA is liable, best case for West is MDA pilots are added back in the list (any monetary damages already in bank). Worst case, Nicolau has a way to "re-evaluate" this award. Thats a good out for him. We might even "like" a new Nic list.

One thing Retired Jim is unable to explain away and wont talk about is the duck. ALL MDA pilots were paying dues or MX fee to ALPA U MEC. They were either members of PHL or CLT L/C. They were on local and MEC committees. They could run for office and had full voting rights in PHL, CLT. In fact, one MDA pilot, Jim Portale (I think that is his name) was elected PHL Sec/Tres. ALPA cant suck dues out of you one day underpenalty of termination, then the next say you werent a member. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck.

 

[nic4us]

They know they got a loser. Their typical MO is to stall when they got a loser.

They need their USAPA DFR wrapped up before the MDA final decision. Lill, that wont happen. One more reason it makes sense for USAPA to play this out.

Where a bogus list goes, no one can tell. , thats a big West headache and has been even before the Nic result came out. The East MC had no choice except to present the list that ALPA National gave them. After all, it was "certified." With a bogus ALPA list "certified" by a court as being bogus, the entire award comes into question. The MDA DFR is down to one count. I hear thats all about money, but a monetary award can only happen if ALPA is proven liable. If ALPA is liable, best case for West is MDA pilots are added back in the list (any monetary damages already in bank). Worst case, Nicolau has a way to "re-evaluate" this award. Thats a good out for him. We might even "like" a new Nic list.

One thing Retired Jim is unable to explain away and wont talk about is the duck. ALL MDA pilots were paying dues or MX fee to ALPA U MEC. They were either members of PHL or CLT L/C. They were on local and MEC committees. They could run for office and had full voting rights in PHL, CLT. In fact, one MDA pilot, Jim Portale (I think that is his name) was elected PHL Sec/Tres. ALPA cant suck dues out of you one day underpenalty of termination, then the next say you werent a member. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck.

Stall when you have a loser? USAPA seems to have learned from ALPA.

From the timelines I am seeing Addington will be well over before MDA gets heard.

Even if MDA wins, and Nicolau revisits the list, east's biggest complaint will not change. A new list will not be manufactured from top down, only the very bottom would be significantlly impacted, if changed at all. My real question to this is there any MDA pilot senior to Colello? If not, even if they are considered active mainline , that does not mean they would be moved above Odell. Re-read the portion of Nic that addresses the east pilot nuetrals objection and why Nic found the way he did for those who had been recalled.

I am very unfamiliar with the history of the MDA saga, however I will add this. I do not know if there is any legal requirement of a union to have seperate locals for different companies. For example, could not United Mine Workers have a local with some members working for Peabody coal and others working for Phelps Dodge digging copper? Other unions have locals where members are actually performing different jobs. For example, Hotel workers could have some members who are in houskeeping, and others who are front desk staff. My point is , just because you are a member of the CLT LEC does not necessarily make you a mainline USAirways pilot.