US Pilots Labor Thread Aug 27-Sep 3 KEEP ON TOPIC

[nycbusdriver]

You are simply pissing your dues away.

Well, they're our dues to piss away. I think it's money well spent. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

That's absolutely right. You will be right where I'd predicted you would be (with NIC, and probably without LOA84), only millions poorer.

Oh, now it's "millions poorer." If we had caved on Nicolau on day one, do you really think any of us would be "millions richer?" We would still be fighting the company for a decent contract, although we might have been a year or two closer to the cooling off period.

Still think it's money well spent. Even if it's just to rattle some west cages for a couple years, it's money well spent.

 

[Megasnoop]

Clue, no more point-counterpoint. Here is what I have to say without getting into replying to each of your paragraphs.

With my track record calling for ending the RICO (paying the evil-doers their legal costs if they promise not to do it again), posting the full version of the Wilder comments, not just the USAPA sanitized, number other issues, Im not the most popular guy in CLT HQ. Plant?

Money used is ours to use, especially since we keep it all, not just 20% and since we have less FPLers getting less money. We care only what MIGS think about how we spend it.


The MDA depos are fact, not "propoganda." One thing I have never said is we’d win the Ninth, LOA84, reduced west hours or the LSJs arbitration. All I said was those things would play out on their own and no amount of your posting would change that. I posted we’d win the Susie. We did. That was an easy call.

Accepting the Kirby will put us millions poorer. Along with it comes more furloughs, no floor on hulls/block hours, no $70M bonus, unless you think the company would modify Kirby and give East something they won’t give west. If so, your side giving up $40M ($70M ratioed) to “buyâ€￾ the NIC/Kirby. No Vacation parity for 4 more years for us plus 3hr/day vs 3:40/day for all. No more SAP with PBS. Commuting pilots bidding more conservatively, equipment or seat downgrades because they could float between block and reserve every other month. Or downgrades/furloughs from PBS efficiencies. PBS that doesn’t honor seniority, favoring lowest cost schedule ahead of seniority.

If Ninth backs Wake and we put out ridiculous pay demands hoping to keep the NIC from coming to a vote, Wake would put a hammer down. But asking for industry average and the company countering with the Kirby, I don’t see that as anything but honest bargaining with company/union miles apart. If we lose the Ninth, the NIC has to be in the contract. But with LOA84 ahead of us, definite loss of $70M and the Kirby as the company’s best offer in the good times, you couldn’t get 20% support. Losing the $70M is like a reverse signing bonus, unless you think parker will give it to us and not to you.

With our augmented F/O Trans-Atlantic crews, even if everyone joined, we’d still have 140 more F/Os. Also 100+ 190 C/Os. Their Kirby pay is the frozen TA C/O rates. Not a lot of support to throw the F/Os under the bus there, either. Our leadership is controlled by those who ran on holding out for minimum industry average. Kirby doesn’t come close. Biggest problem is getting a Kirby-type TA out of committee for a vote. I don't think another “let my Daddy vote!â€￾ would ever materialize.

Clue, we’re all willing to debate, but let's concentrate on concrete facts, not this constant west is going to win, east C/Os are going to throw F/Os under the bus. No one knows how the Ninth will rule. But we do know how East C/Os are voting. We saw them in the USAPA election and the latest one-size-fits all bonus vote. You’ll never drive a wedge in that support.
As one left seater put it in the cockpit recently, “When I leave this airline, this seat is yours.â€￾

 

[cleardirect]

Snoop,

Have you actually read the complete MDA transcripts of the Nicolau depo? Or only heard a summary of what was said?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Snoop...

Probably neither...just makes it up as needed. Sorta like rationalizing the over 58 pay no train in the west contract that USAPA offered up...started out as "following the law" and ended up as "the company wasn't about to pay two people for each captain slot for 7 years" (and I thought the union was supposed to look out for the pilots, not the company...).

Remember Snoop's own words - "Of course I have no credibility"



Jim

 

[Hate2fly]

Snoop,

Have you actually read the complete MDA transcripts of the Nicolau depo? Or only heard a summary of what was said?

Yo Clear,

There are a bunch of us on here that are intimately familiar with the MDA suit. We have been told to keep things tight! Call your boy the Judge and have him get you what you need!

Hate

 

[exB717Flyer]

So now USAPA is suing the PBGC. Every airline that went through Chapter 11 lost their pilot pensions. So of course, when it happened to US Airways it was yet another conspiracy. As a USAPA member I wish my money wasn't being used to fund yet another dead-end court case. Oh well. Maybe the next union will fix all this.

 

[cactusboy53]

So now USAPA is suing the PBGC. Every airline that went through Chapter 11 lost their pilot pensions. So of course, when it happened to US Airways it was yet another conspiracy. As a USAPA member I wish my money wasn't being used to fund yet another dead-end court case. Oh well. Maybe the next union will fix all this.

717;
Why wait on the sidelines? Demand transparency & proper spending / budgeting. We MIG's in the west (Members in Good Standing) are holding the USAPA leadership & BPR responsible legally & fiscally. If we don't speak up, a new "union" will make NO DIFFERENCE. Call your or better yet e-mail your base reps and tell them what you expect.

 

[exB717Flyer]

You're absolutely right. Consider it done.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I got a response that the litigation is being paid for by the East's assessment. Assuming that's the case I'm satisfied.

 

[nic4us]

Well, they're our dues to piss away. I think it's money well spent. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

Still think it's money well spent. Even if it's just to rattle some west cages for a couple years, it's money well spent.

I want to make sure you realize that if AOL wins damages at trial, it will be way more than your dues you are pissing away. The dues are only the maintenance fee on the debt you are accruing.

Everyone seems to have this notion that this will end at the 9th. If usapa loses, we still have a damages portion of trial to see how much you owe the West. That bill gets bigger every day, and it is substantially larger than dues assesment. usapa has aleady been found liable, the question is how many dollars liable. My guess, somewhere between $0 and 3% of West payroll plus the salaries of 142 pilot furloughs plus the difference in Capt and F/O pay for 125 pilots plus legal fees.

 

[nic4us]

I'm not sure your point. What contracts did USAPA break? Since USAPA won the election, the west has had no standing, so no contract to live up to. Bargains? We had to go to arbitration to get you to pay your dues and had to go to court to stop the harassment. Blame the AAA MEC all you want. We blame them too. USAPA is not the old AAA MEC. Trying to morph us as the straw man when ALPA was responsible? It isn't flying.

There have been West MIGs since day one, and your comment about the West having no standing speaks volumes on usapa's intent. That was the intent of usapa's formation, take the West's seniority and status by taking their representation.

Of course you had to force dues payment. You wanted payment for no service, as you say we had no standing. By the way are west pilots honoring the results of the Susie arbitration? I am sure Susie is.

I know we are closer to agreement on the Cactus 18, so I won't go there.

What is the status of J Mac's grievence? The one claiming Nic should have been implemented when the east MEC broke their TA contractual obligation and walked out of joint negotiations. I would call refusing to show up a cancellation of negotiations. What does the TA say about that?

 

[hp_fa]

Everyone seems to have this notion that this will end at the 9th.

Not me. This is headed for SCOTUS even if the SCOTUS simply refuses to hear it I expect that a writ of certiorari will be filed.

 

[Poug Darker]

Nobody has been damaged. No new contract, no seniority list, no damages, only those imagined in the minds of the westies.
You think Kirby was going to give you 3%. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
This case should never have come to trial.

 

[nic4us]

Not me. This is headed for SCOTUS even if the SCOTUS simply refuses to hear it I expect that a writ of certiorari will be filed.

Probably correct. I just wanted to point out that if the 9th upholds Wake, it is not as simple for the east as, okay we lost its the Nic lets move on, there are people coming after usapa for cash money, and lots of it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I want to make sure you realize that if AOL wins damages at trial, it will be way more than your dues you are pissing away. The dues are only the maintenance fee on the debt you are accruing.

Everyone seems to have this notion that this will end at the 9th. If usapa loses, we still have a damages portion of trial to see how much you owe the West. That bill gets bigger every day, and it is substantially larger than dues assesment. usapa has aleady been found liable, the question is how many dollars liable. My guess, somewhere between $0 and 3% of West payroll plus the salaries of 142 pilot furloughs plus the difference in Capt and F/O pay for 125 pilots plus legal fees.

The judge conjectured that he wasn't even sure if the Addington plaintiffs were entitled to legal fees. Given that, do you really think you're going to hit the lottery on this? There has to be actual damages to collect money. It should be an interesting magic show if it gets to that point.