US sniper shot at Koran in Iraq

[KCFlyer]

Yep, send them all home and lets all set back and watch the middle east implode.

It would seem that the middle east has been imploding for the past 4 centuries. At least, they've all been fighting each other that long (or longer). Why put American servicemen in the middle of it? Oh yeah, I forgot - gas is over $4 a gallon.

 

[Veritas]

Actually?..Imho: You very clearly don't "understand" 🙄 Human nature hasn't changed since..oh...say..at least the start of any/all known history, and caving in to any who wish your society and yourself destroyed is no more an "intelligent" concept today than it was in the era of Attila the Hun. It's completely sane and fully reasonable to seek methods of getting along with others. It becomes completey insane behavior whenever said others are adamantly intent upon your demise or enslavement, and no amount of "touchy-feely" fantasies serve to alter that very harsh reality in the slightest. The "big concern" herein is with a disgrunteld soldier shooting a book. That's right folks...not mistakenly killing any innocent person..but shooting a freaking book. THAT, ladies and gentlemen....is...not only evidence of skewed "priorities" in extremis..but simply, clinically INSANE "thinking" at any level or angle I can approach it from. I only wish that any/all of such a mindset could personally take a "field trip" to the middle east themselves. (Toto...I don't think we're in Kansas anymore) I'd be very interested to hear the perspectives held after their returning home...assuming that they survived of course.

You keep resorting to insult those who disagree with you, just as you wrote in your earlier message:

Well.. Neg perspiration Sea 😉....Whenever "they" are down to the usual "Waah!...Whatta' you mean you don't agree with me!!?? I'm really, really smart...just ask me!!" or any similarly presumptive, and arrogant insults...you know you've got 'em on the run

Clearly, by your own analysis you are the one who is on the run on this issue.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

I'm OK with the "punishment" = He got to return HOME..and alive, and even healthy...what a "punishment" 😉

Since even our snipers are now, through some utterly perverse and wholesale insanity...supposed to be "diplomats"...
Actually?..I'm thinking that the best course would be to just have the entire USA immediately convert to Islam..since we certainly don't dare ever offend such folk in any way.

No... they are supposed to follow the guidelines and principles set forth in the Counterinsurgency Field Manual that was issued to them by their superiors. That Manual was intended to provide soldiers with the necessary guidelines to succeed in the Iraq campaign. I would rather soldiers abide by the principles and guidelines set forth in the Manual -- and be punished for those actions that violate such principles -- than to see soldiers act in a rogue manner that is inconsistent with the Field Manual... a field manual that is supposed to assist in establishing rule of law and local governance.

Moreover, this has much to do with following the principles set forth by your superiors and little to do with "offending" muslims. There is a reason why Petreaus asked soliders to respect local religion in Iraq, it was a pure strategic move to include such language in the manual. It would not be prudent for commanding officers to allow soldiers to blatantly hamper the propsed strategy in Iraq, regardless of your personal feelings on whether it is an appropriate strategy.

 

[EastUS]

No... they are supposed to follow the guidelines and principles set forth in the Counterinsurgency Field Manual that was issued to them by their superiors. That Manual was intended to provide soldiers with the necessary guidelines to succeed in the Iraq campaign. I would rather soldiers abide by the principles and guidelines set forth in the Manual -- and be punished for those actions that violate such principles -- than to see soldiers act in a rogue manner that is inconsistent with the Field Manual... a field manual that is supposed to assist in establishing rule of law and local governance.

There is a reason why Petreaus asked soliders to respect local religion in Iraq, it was a pure strategic move to include such language in the manual. It would not be prudent for commanding officers to allow soldiers to blatantly hamper the propsed strategy in Iraq, regardless of your personal feelings on whether it is an appropriate strategy.

Discipline's required for the avoidance of chaos..no argument there. That an unbeliveably high state of order exists within the theater's fully evident by the lack of massacres of the My Lai type, and is a fine testament to the true quality of our volunteer soldiers, and isn't representative of any brilliant, great "new" break-throughs in military management techniques....period. Given what our young people over there constantly endure....that's little short of miraculous as it is. That's a life-and-death, as a constant issue enviornment, that most cannot even begin to imagine...and yet can find time to fret over anyone shooting a freaking book....sigh.

As for: "Moreover, this has much to do with following the principles set forth by your superiors and little to do with "offending" muslims." I fully disagree, and must note that the "Big Issue" here is ENTIRELY the choice of books for a target. Can you even begin to claim that we'd all be in such a "Holy" uproar had he shot anything other than the given choice of target?. = BS. The exact same bullets could have evaporated the torso and/or head of a living human being over there without the slightest comments being made. Do I think it ill-considered to have selected said book? = Yes...but only because it served the propoganda purposes, and standard "Holy-self-righteousness" of the enemy...period. That which casts our people into any ill-shaded light helps the enemy....pretty much in the same way that making such a liberally "righteous" cause celebre' out of such an utterly trivial incident does.

Just a couple of links to another's thoughts on the current state of affairs within these, culturally and otherwise.... "interesting times". I'll note that, personally...I'm NO fan of organized religion in ANY form, and fully understand that an enormous amount of pure evil's VERY often been the direct product of such throughout history. I believe in tolerance for toher persons and their beliefs, as is certainly appropriate for any that also believe in Freedom,...but also believe it's completely counter productive to "tolerate" any murderous "religious" facists, who actively seek the destruction of our country, our "culture", and ourselves, and "justify" it via some insane, religious BS. To do ANY catering to such is, imho, clinically insane behavior. I don't care WHAT religion of whatever set of people is involved. Heck..if it were appropriate to EVER impose any religon on ANY other human being?...I'd suggest consideration be given to Buddhisim....I've yet to see many millions tortured to death and/or slaughtered for that one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9dXGJ2rYdA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhN6CG1zCRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_qelW5qp4...feature=related

 

[Seatacus]

It would seem that the middle east has been imploding for the past 4 centuries. At least, they've all been fighting each other that long (or longer). Why put American servicemen in the middle of it? Oh yeah, I forgot - gas is over $4 a gallon.

How about the USA find some alternative energy (coal, nuclear, solar, wind, hydro) and other sources of oil (ANWAR, drill off our coasts) then go tell the Middle East to go pack sand...................

 

[Gilding the Lily]

As for: "Moreover, this has much to do with following the principles set forth by your superiors and little to do with "offending" muslims." I fully disagree, and must note that the "Big Issue" here is ENTIRELY the choice of books for a target. Can you even begin to claim that we'd all be in such a "Holy" uproar had he shot anything other than the given choice of target?. = BS. The exact same bullets could have evaporated the torso and/or head of a living human being over there without the slightest comments being made. Do I think it ill-considered to have selected said book? = Yes...but only because it served the propoganda purposes, and standard "Holy-self-righteousness" of the enemy...period. That which casts our people into any ill-shaded light helps the enemy....pretty much in the same way that making such a liberally "righteous" cause celebre' out of such an utterly trivial incident does.
v=W3_qelW5qp4&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_qelW5qp4...feature=related[/url]

If he had shot a "different" book, then he wouldn't have been disrespecting the local religion in violation of the principles and guidelines set forth in the Army/Marine field manual. Obviously it isn't "trivial" to the locals... and it WASN'T TRIVIAL TO THE ARMY AND MARINES. Otherwise, they wouldn't have included in the Field Manual the directions to respect the local religion. It is part of their strategy and guidlines for success in Iraq. He acted contrary to those principles, PERIOD. Reasonable punishment is appropriate.

 

[EastUS]

Dude??? If he had shot a "different" book, then he wouldn't have been disrespecting the local religion in violation of the principles and guidelines set forth in the field manual. Obviously it isn't "trivial" to the locals... and it WASN'T TRIVIAL TO THE ARMY AND MARINES. Otherwise, they wouldn't have included in the Field Manual the directions to respect the local religion. It is part of their strategy and guidlines for success in Iraq. He acted contrary to those principles, PERIOD. Reasonable punishment is appropriate.

"Obviously it isn't "trivial" to the locals... "..Well..I guess that THAT should always dictate ALL of US policy and procedures then. Umm..btw...what qualifies you to speak for all of the "locals"? 🙄

"WASN'T TRIVIAL TO THE ARMY AND MARINES." You're probably right. I can imagine the hearty cheering from his comrades

"It is part of their strategy and guidlines for success in Iraq." Hmmmm?..I thought that there was no chance for "success in Iraq", and that we should leave immediately?...Now I'm really "confused" 🙄

PS: In post-WWII, occupied Germany...a great many "locals" held a religious zeal for the Nazi Party and, virtually worshipped Adolph Hitler as a God. Sigh...I guess that our troops should have done nothing to "offend" their beliefs at any level...and gone about their business making certain that they showed the fullest respect for Swastikas/Nazi symbols and ALL of "the locals" beliefs. In fair counterpoint.we have the Imperial Japanese regime, for which, it was deemed prudent to enlist the assistance of their "God-Emperor" Hirohito, and he was allowed to live. It must be noted that such largesse and political expediency was prefaced by the most savage aerial bombardment in history, and the obliteration of virtually every major city..not to mention the killing of millions of "the locals"...which, most likely..made them a bit more "reasonable" towards western "suggestions".

War's an obscenely hideous business at any level. I jsut can't share your concern over some book.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

"Obviously it isn't "trivial" to the locals... "..Well..I guess that THAT should always dictate ALL of US policy and procedures then. Umm..btw...what qualifies you to speak for all of the "locals"? 🙄

"WASN'T TRIVIAL TO THE ARMY AND MARINES." You're probably right. I can imagine the hearty cheering from his comrades

"It is part of their strategy and guidlines for success in Iraq." Hmmmm?..I thought that there was no chance for "success in Iraq", and that we should leave immediately?...Now I'm really "confused" 🙄

PS: In post-WWII, occupied Germany...a great many "locals" held a religious zeal for the Nazi Party and, virtually worshipped Adolph Hitler as a God. Sigh...I guess that our troops should have done nothing to "offend" their beliefs at any level...and gone about their business making certain that they showed the fullest respect for Swastikas/Nazi symbols and ALL of "the locals" beliefs. In fair counterpoint.we have the Imperial Japanese regime, for which, it was deemed prudent to enlist the assistance of their "God-Emperor" Hirohito, and he was allowed to live. It must be noted that such largesse and political expediency was prefaced by the most savage aerial bombardment in history, and the obliteration of virtually every major city..not to metnion the killing of millions of "the locals"...which, most likely..made them a bit more "reasonable" towards western "suggestions".

Sorry you are so confused, bud. Again, you are arguing whether it is appropriate strategy. All I am saying is that the soldier acted contrary to the principles and guidlines that General Petraeus set forth. Soldiers should act in the manner that the Military directs them.

I am not speaking on behalf of the locals... I am simply reiterating what the FIELD MANUAL states. Perhaps you should grab a copy.

What part of my previous post advocated for withdrawl. It appears to me that you cannot keep your arguments/responses straight.

P.S. What evidence do you have that after WWII, the Army issued a Field Manual that requested soldiers to respect the swastika???

 

[EastUS]

Sorry you are so confused, bud. Again, you are arguing whether it is appropriate strategy. All I am saying is that the soldier acted contrary to the principles and guidlines that General Petraeus set forth. Soldiers should act in the manner that the Military directs them.

"What part of my previous post advocated for withdrawl. It appears to me that you cannot keep your arguments/responses straight." You're right = that was a generalized response not properly directed at your posting.


"I am not speaking on behalf of the locals... I am simply reiterating what the FIELD MANUAL states. Perhaps you should grab a copy." Is there a portion that specifically forbids using the Koran for target practice? I'd love to see an extract to that effect.

"P.S. What evidence do you have that after WWII, the Army issued a Field Manual that requested soldiers to respect the swastika???" Sigh..That's the point = There was no such "politically correct" insanity at work at that time, and the Nazi Party symbols were cheerfully obliterated.

 

[Cosworth]

WWII was a different time, a different world, a different culture and a different enemy. The same rules do not apply and IMO the rules of warfare from WWII cannot be transfered to the existing conflict.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Is there a portion that specifically forbids using the Koran for target practice? I'd love to see an extract to that effect.

There IS an extract to that effect: SOLDIERS SHOULD SHOW RESPECT FOR THE LOCAL RELIGIONS AND TRADITIONS.

Are you suggesting that using the koran for target practice, writing expletive graffiti on the inside, and leaving it behind for locals to find is showing respect for the local religion??? Are you suggesting that this soldier was not acting contrary to the principles and guidelines that our Military's highest commanders set forth in the Field Manual that outlines the strategy for counterinsurgency success in Iraq???

 

[Cosworth]

There IS an extract to that effect: SOLDIERS SHOULD SHOW RESPECT FOR THE LOCAL RELIGIONS AND TRADITIONS.

Are you suggesting that using the koran for target practice, writing expletive graffiti on the inside, and leaving it behind for locals to find is showing respect for the local religion??? Are you suggesting that this soldier was not acting contrary to the principles and guidelines that our Military's highest commanders set forth in the Field Manual that outlines the strategy for counterinsurgency success in Iraq???

To hell with the field manual. How about just exercising a bit a common sense. The extremest when nuts over a cartoon depicting the prophet Mohamed. What makes anyone think desecrating a Koran would be any different.

 

[EastUS]

To hell with the field manual. How about just exercising a bit a common sense. The extremest when nuts over a cartoon depicting the prophet Mohamed. What makes anyone think desecrating a Koran would be any different.

Sigh..you're "right". The ONLY "reasonable" approach is to never, never DARE to EVER upset the good, "holy" little extremists in ANY way, shape or form...after all...it's clearly best to let them dictate how all others should think, live, believe and act, especially "us"...yeah...that makes perfect sense to me. 🙄 Ummm..you don't honestly see how such cowardly BS's adversely effecting the entire western world as it is?...OK then.

"How about just exercising a bit a common sense."

 

[Cosworth]

You are an odd bird. You present your way and as an alternate you present the extreme opposite as the only other viable alternative.

Do you honestly believe what the soldier did was reasonable? How are they dictating anything? We are invaders in their country who are trying to 'liberate' them and show them 'democracy'. Would it not be prudent to respect their beliefs?

 

[Tug McGroin]

Would it not be prudent to respect their beliefs?

On the day an US Army sniper used a discarded Qur’an for target practice, al-Qaeda strapped explosives to an 8-year-old girl, killing more Iraqis in the name of Allah. Only one of these acts enraged Muslims.

If the sniper broke a rule in some field manual then tell him to knock it off then place him back with his company. Case closed.

Cosworth, you don’t even believe in God. Who are you to be telling anybody to have respect for others religious beliefs? Hypocrite!!