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USAPA/ALPA US Pilot Labor Thread 5/10-5/17

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See, east and west can agree on something!

I think there was a lot of infighting between the EC and Prater. I think the EC wanted to get rid of it as quick as possible and Prater wanted to come up with a solution that didn't tear us apart. At least John knew how much damage the award could do. He told me that he thought it had the potential to ruin US ALPA, ALPA national and US Airways. So far it's one out of the three.

I don't so much fault Prater for wanting to find a solution that didn't tear us apart as I fault the way he chose to go about it. The JNC was where all that could have and should have been adressed. Sure, it would have taken forever and we may have ended up where we are today anyway, but it would have been the right way to go about it.

The way Prater did it, it just smacked of outright deviousness in the eyes of the west. Sure, maybe it wasn't literally, but how was a line schmuck supposed to know that? We just had to assume it was.

Now on the other hand, if it had been in JNC, the west would have at least felt involved and known that we would all be voting on it. In my opinion, we may have had a shot at coming up with something. But then again, maybe there was no avoiding what happened. One thing is certain though, in my eyes at least, no matter what Prater's true intentions, it looks like he put politics over procedure. Thats just lousy headwork.
 
One other thing. Once Prater starting jacking with the process, there was no recovering. Anything and everything just made it worse, ie. the Philly rep fiasco.
 
What ever happened to the need for both pre-merger groups to vote to ratify a contract that includes the Nic list?

I'd always thought that the ALPA decert drive was more an effort to show how unlikely it was for any contract vote that included Nic to pass.

Doesn't that still have to happen before Nic gets implemented?

I'm just curious.


The best answer to your question is that it depends on who answers your question. You will get an earful either way.

I think the bottom line is that no one knows right now how this will play out. I don't think there is a lot of precedent for this unique situation, so the parties will be setting precedent, likely some of it, at least, in courts of law.

USAPA (with their lawyers backing) will tell you one thing; AWAPPA (with their lawyers backing) will give you a diametrically opposed answer to that. 700UW, Bear96 and BoeingBoy will pontificate their own takes on the situation, swearing that theirs is the one, true answer. US Airways management, with their own legal team, probably have yet another course in mind, but they are holding their cards close to their vest right now.

There is no answer right now to your question. There might not be for years, actually.
 
unfortunately that just doesn't make sense to me. If in any merger you voted on representation before seniority integration then the bill would never in any case be used. The way I see it, since we are two different pilot groups pre merger then seniority arbitration is handled as per the bill and the representational vote, regardless of when it occurs, will not change that. Either way though it will end up on an arbitrators desk along with a list that usappa provides and one that awppa's lawyer provides and then we go from there.

So now I'm confused, which isn't hard to do, but as of this moment the AAA pilots are represented by USAPA, and the UAL pilots are ALPA. If a merger is announced with UAL, you have two different CBA's in place. SLI (seniority list integration) would have to precede any vote on which union will survive. You can't vote on a union before the lists are integrated, otherwise A-M and McCaskill-Bond are meaningless.

How am I wrong?


I think what you guys are missing in this logic exercise is what may be argued by ALPA national to the NMB and everyone else concerned.

ALPA National can state that ALPA merger policy, closely reviewed by the legislators in crafting the new law, remarkably parallels McCaskill-Bond and will be followed when merging the US and UAL pilot groups. The US/AWA SLI process was conducted under ALPA merger policy, and with the US/UAL representational vote if ALPA is successful (almost assured), then ALPA merger policy will be used for SLI that contains the same protections as McCaskill-Bond. It can even be argued that ALPA merger policy goes further than McCaskill-Bond in protecting the rights of the two groups in all aspects of the merger process, not just SLI, and therefore ALPA merger policy should be used.

They can argue that the two pilot groups will be considered separate and that US will maintain its own MEC representational structure, set up subsequent to the representational change to represent and administer the US and AWA contracts, until a joint collective US/UAL bargaining agreement is ratified independently per ALPA merger policy. The US MEC representational structure can be resurrected from the previously elected positions or appointed by ALPA National to fill the positions. Kind of like the undo button and flash back to April 16, 2008, then merge the US and UAL pilot groups per ALPA merger policy which is equal to or may even be considered superior than McCaskill-Bond in providing a fair process to merge the pilot groups beause of the comprehensive scope of ALPA merger policy.

A plausible and reasonable argument.

In any case, I believe that since no new joint contract will be negotiated, ratified, or implemented for the US pilot group prior to any merger with UAL, that the Nicolau arbitration list must be the starting point for any SLI between US and UAL under the auspices of either ALPA merger policy or McCaskill-Bond. What gives validity to a seniority list created out of thin air, by an unelected leadership for the two unmerged and still separate pilot groups, that also would not have been voted on approved or implemented, verses an seniority list derived by an agreed upon process by the two pilot groups. The US and AWA pilot groups are still two separate and identifiable groups each with their own collective bargaining agreements that must be administered and represented reguardless that under usapa we are represented by only one MEC.

Just my thoughts to further the discussion. 😀

 
I think what you guys are missing in this logic exercise is what may be argued by ALPA national to the NMB and everyone else concerned.

ALPA National can state that ALPA merger policy, closely reviewed by the legislators in crafting the new law, remarkably parallels McCaskill-Bond and will be followed when merging the US and UAL pilot groups. The US/AWA SLI process was conducted under ALPA merger policy, and with the US/UAL representational vote if ALPA is successful (almost assured), then ALPA merger policy will be used for SLI that contains the same protections as McCaskill-Bond. It can even be argued that ALPA merger policy goes further than McCaskill-Bond in protecting the rights of the two groups in all aspects of the merger process, not just SLI, and therefore ALPA merger policy should be used.

They can argue that the two pilot groups will be considered separate and that US will maintain its own MEC representational structure, set up subsequent to the representational change to represent and administer the US and AWA contracts, until a joint collective US/UAL bargaining agreement is ratified independently per ALPA merger policy. The US MEC representational structure can be resurrected from the previously elected positions or appointed by ALPA National to fill the positions. Kind of like the undo button and flash back to April 16, 2008, then merge the US and UAL pilot groups per ALPA merger policy which is equal to or may even be considered superior than McCaskill-Bond in providing a fair process to merge the pilot groups beause of the comprehensive scope of ALPA merger policy.

A plausible and reasonable argument.

In any case, I believe that since no new joint contract will be negotiated, ratified, or implemented for the US pilot group prior to any merger with UAL, that the Nicolau arbitration list must be the starting point for any SLI between US and UAL under the auspices of either ALPA merger policy or McCaskill-Bond. What gives validity to a seniority list created out of thin air, by an unelected leadership for the two unmerged and still separate pilot groups, that also would not have been voted on approved or implemented, verses an seniority list derived by an agreed upon process by the two pilot groups. The US and AWA pilot groups are still two separate and identifiable groups each with their own collective bargaining agreements that must be administered and represented reguardless that under usapa we are represented by only one MEC.

Just my thoughts to further the discussion. 😀


What??? :huh:
 
Where do you get all this incorrect information. You are seriously misinformed. The UPA movement at UA died last year. They completely closed up shop due to a serious lack of support. The UPA movement was started by a handful of 1986-ish hired captains based in DCA who were particularly bitter about the pension cancellation and the way the UAL MEC decided to distribute the convertible note ALPA received on bankruptcy exit. We are talking about MAYBE a few hundred piltos out of 8000. Your hope that this will mean USAPA will have allies to vote ALPA off UA's property is misguided.

"I would have thought that such a question, from an elected representative of one of the largest councils of the largest airlines in ALPA, deserved a better response. Unfortunately, it appears that Captain Prater and ALPA National intend to continue to ignore and disrespect the pilots of United Airlines. It also appears that the “pilot warrior” I thought we had elected to lead us is turning out to be nothing more than another politician."

Vice Chairman try to back ALPA time in his life


COUNCIL 34 VICE CHAIRMAN’S REPORT

F/O Mike Holman, Vice Chairman

March 2008


Pilots of Council 34,


Over the past few months my reports to you have dealt mostly with local council issues, an incompetent and morally bankrupt management, and a kamikaze dog. This month I’d like to discuss a more sensitive issue; the lack of respect and support from ALPA National for the United Pilots.

In October of 2006 I attended my first ALPA National Board of Directors meeting in Las Vegas. While I had been to ALPA headquarters in Herndon, Virginia on several occasions, and met with a number of ALPA National officers, this was my first real working experience with ALPA National. Knowing that the pilots of United are the single largest group within ALPA (as well as the largest source of dues dollars) I walked into day one of the meeting expecting our MEC to be treated with respect. Such was not the case.

During the weeklong meeting the United MEC, and the pilots of United, were treated with disrespect and contempt by the very group we feed. I saw more respect given to groups of pimple faced boys claiming to be the “MEC” from some regional carrier down south than was to our own MEC. I saw great efforts put forth from ALPA National to pacify the pilots of carriers flying nothing larger than a 50 seat RJ, yet when one of the members of our own MEC spoke he was ignored.

About half-way through the week, elections were held for new ALPA National officers. Much has been reported about these elections and I won’t repeat it all here, but I will add this: only 30 minutes before the elections were held our MEC decided, unanimously, to support John Prater in his bid to succeed Duane Woerth as the new president of ALPA National. I had grown tired of the same old rhetoric and inaction from Captain Woerth and believed this decision to support Captain Prater was in the best interests of ALPA, as well as the pilots of United Airlines. Prater’s margin of victory was so slim that if even one member of the United MEC had changed their vote he would have lost. To put it simply, Captain John Prater owed his victory to the pilots of United Airlines.

Earlier in the week I had had several private conversations with Prater and it was my feeling that he was the right man for the job. I told one of our pilots later that we had elected a “pilot warrior” to lead us. I expected that our new leader would realize not just who put him in office, but would finally recognize and respect the pilots of United Airlines. I was to be disappointed.

At the January 2008 meeting of the United MEC Captain Prater was present to address us. He began by saying he had no prepared remarks, and then proceeded to deliver an apparently canned and rehearsed speech; at the conclusion of which I asked him two questions.

My first question began with a reminder that the pilots of United Airlines constitute the largest single member of ALPA, as well as the largest source of dues income. I then asked why it is that in most issues of “Airline Pilot”, the official publication of ALPA, the only mention of United Airlines I can find is to the right of the names of some of our pilots who have recently passed away, while in the same publication there is no sparing of either space or expense in reporting on the proud pilots of the RJ airline de jour. For emphasis I held up the current issue of “Airline Pilot” showing a photo of an RJ on the cover. Before Captain Prater could answer I asked my second question.

Using the RJ on the cover as a backdrop, I said that the magazine proudly reports on the growth of airlines flying RJs and the increasing membership in ALPA this provides. However, this growth in RJ flying comes with a loss of jobs at the major carriers, specifically United, which has lost thousands of pilot jobs to the RJs. I also pointed out to Captain Prater that many of these same RJ pilots have been spotted with stickers on their flight bags that say “GUPPY KILLER” in reference to the fact that their RJs have put our pilots out of work. I asked Captain Prater if he approved of this show of arrogance on the part of these pilots and if this is something that ALPA National encouraged. The silence in the room was deafening and I eagerly awaited Captain Prater’s response. Again, I was disappointed.

Not only did Captain Prater not answer my questions, the response I got seemed to be a rehash of the same rehearsed speech he had just given. I would have thought that such a question, from an elected representative of one of the largest councils of the largest airlines in ALPA, deserved a better response. Unfortunately, it appears that Captain Prater and ALPA National intend to continue to ignore and disrespect the pilots of United Airlines. It also appears that the “pilot warrior” I thought we had elected to lead us is turning out to be nothing more than another politician.

The next ALPA National Board of Directors meeting will be this October. I will be there and look forward to reporting to you about it.

Fraternally,

Mike Holman

Council 34 Vice Chairman
 
Your response to the poster with this reply only confirms what I always thought. Your clueless as to what USAPA is all about. And we are not bypassing anything.

Tell you what. Remove all of the DOH crap out of usapa, accept the NIC, begin genuine negotiations and then come tell us what your baby union is all about.

What's left shouldn't take you much time or bandwidth to express.
 
Tell you what. Remove all of the DOH crap out of usapa, accept the NIC, begin genuine negotiations and then come tell us what your baby union is all about.

What's left shouldn't take you much time or bandwidth to express.

NiceLandingCaptain:"The poster said "if" they staple the US pilots. But you know what? That sure sounds good to me and my band of 1800 brothers here in the west.

I can hear the termites now.... chomping away contentedly on that eastie bully pulpit. One nibble at a time.....We will prevail.

By the way - your top 517 did get stapled. So quitcherbitchin. You got more than you deserved in arbitration."

Hmmm...given the choice?...I'll favor a Union based on principles over any suggested termites' protocol myself, regardless of whether the latter find full agreement with that or not.

(Note to self: Alpa-Fly Swatter no longer adequate. Must call Orkin asap)
 
Hmmm...given the choice?...I'll favor a Union based on principles over any suggested termites' protocol myself, regardless of whether the latter find full agreement with that or not.

You're not getting it are you, eastus. The termites chomping at your foundation are marching in from Chicago. The entitlement you tried to steal, and the "based on principals" baby union's days are numbered.

Ever hears of SIDS? Unfortunately, for you, I predict a severe case of it for your baby union. As it should be.

We'll throw a nice wake for ya....... :up:

NLC
 
Tell you what. Remove all of the DOH crap out of usapa, accept the NIC, begin genuine negotiations and then come tell us what your baby union is all about.

What's left shouldn't take you much time or bandwidth to express.

Did you read the post above yours? Read what the UAL MEC Vice Chairman is saying about his own experience with ALPA national. THAT is why USAPA is here (minus DOH and minus Nic.) It is about getting rid of ALPA more than anything else. It was coming long before the Nicolau shame was published. Do a "who is" search on the URL "decertifyalp.org" which was the first web address for USAPA. Tell me when the URL was created.
 
The entitlement you tried to steal,
NLC

That pretty much says it all. The entitlement, pretty much what is driving this country these days. Forget the years you put in guys, forget the billions you gave up to keep US afloat, our Dougie signed the note so we are entitled to it all.
 
West pilots as well as the UAL MEC and their constituents. We look forward to the upcoming merger. How about you?

I do not observe any snickering from awa pilots when I see them.

I posted a United alpa local update of few posts back, they seemed concerned about their union.
 
The fact that management uses express carriers to whipsawing the mainline unions mainline union employees should be concern when there unions want to be representative by the same union. It lowers the bar. One can only look at the pilot profession and how management has exploited the express vs mainline. The union ALPA has allowed it.
ALPA is writing the book on how to lower wages benefits outsource and cerate havoc among the employees of the airline industry. Management always starts with the pilots
This tactic will be use over and over again. Unions will allow express representation for the same reason ALPA did/does $$$$$$
 
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