Vote Count?

[aafsc]

Hackman, I concur with your last paragraph. There are some interesting courses of action that can be taken by the unions still on the property at NW. The question is do they have the ability to recognize, plan, and execute a plan to achieve their goals. In my opinion, I don't think that they do. There are a few unknown variables such as: will the memberships at the remaining unions vote yes for the compensation NWA is now proposing? Or will they vote no? Will NW management move on their origional position and offer improvements? These are just a few of the variables. There are also some interesting counteractions that the company can take.

NW can try to replace the IAM members if they walk. However, it would be difficult to hire, drug test, fingerprint, background check, and train a few thousand in a short space of time. Even if they could, these new scabs would make the replacements at Alaska Airlines look like professionals. It takes a while to become proficient in reservations and ticketing procedures. And who in their right mind would work the ramps in DTW and MSP in January and February for minimum wage? This will be interesting to say the least. Good luck to the employees at NWA. I hope you prevail.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

I’m not going to justify your eighth-grade mudslinging with a response, except to say that it’s all the proof I need of you and your kind’s childish view of reality.

What's the matter Stratocruiser? The truth hurts doesn't it?You're the one who needs a dose of reality. How low are you willing to go? What is the bottom line for you? No medical? No Penison? Minimum Wage? At what point will you take a stand and say: NO MORE!

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

Guess what? We replaced them as well, most of us long before the strike, and don't really give a crap about NWA anymore. There's only so many times you can be willing to sacrifice to save the same airline only to see your contribution wasted by successive generations of bad management.
Oh, they do indeed. They see two decades of experience, on average, and experience keeping the oldest fleet in the business flying. Of the several hundred people I know from NWA, not one has been turned down for whatever job they applied for.
Blah, blah, blah. That's what they said in the 1920's too. Bad management creates unions.

THen how is it that Ludwig himself, with all his vast experience, admits to being unable to find a job because he's "..that Union Guy"? His words exactly. Just a thought.....

What's the matter Stratocruiser? The truth hurts doesn't it?You're the one who needs a dose of reality. How low are you willing to go? What is the bottom line for you? No medical? No Penison? Minimum Wage? At what point will you take a stand and say: NO MORE!

Again, I know this post is not directed to me directly, but as a contractor, here's how far I would go. I dont unload my tool box for under 23 an hour, simply because that is about the INDUSTRY average. As a vet, I have no need for medical. I invest in my own retirement through my stock portfolio. To rely on a pension or Social Security in this day and age is financial suicide, as anyone with half a brain should realize by now. Bottom line is that NO ONE, not the unions, not the company, and CERTAINLY not the govt, is as capable of taking care of you as you are! (sorry if this got a bit off topic, but the startling lack of individual independence in this nation is a pet peeve of mine)

**Edited for double post**

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

CZAR, if you are counting on the stock market for your retirement, you're gonna be one poor individual when the next stock market crash sends the USA into the "Greatest Depression". This country is in same position it was in 1929, except this time there will be little or no manufacturing base to cushion the blow and our government will be bankrupt because of huge budget deficits. People apparently never learn. Social Security and Pensions were created to prevent the diaster of 1929 from happening again. Now they want us all to to gamble our retirement funds in the stock market? You claim you have medical because your a vet. So people who aren't vet's shouldn't have medical benefits? When the US government declares bankruptcy, do you really think they will honor their veteran's health or pension plans? The industry standard pay for AMTS is $35+ hour not $23-hour this standard was set by UPS,Southwest,Fed-Ex,Northwest(before the strike),AA(pre TWU sellout),etc.. $23/hr should be the starting wage for an AMT out of A+P school. Why do you work for such substandard wages?

 

[local 12 proud]

well princess CSAR already admitted he was a dumb "jarhead" with only A high school diploma, cut him some slack.

In the words of the famous showman P.T. BARNUM "A sucker is born every minute" :blink:

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

CZAR, if you are counting on the stock market for your retirement, you're gonna be one poor individual when the next stock market crash sends the USA into the "Greatest Depression". This country is in same position it was in 1929, except this time there will be little or no manufacturing base to cushion the blow and our government will be bankrupt because of huge budget deficits. People apparently never learn. Social Security and Pensions were created to prevent the diaster of 1929 from happening again. Now they want us all to to gamble our retirement funds in the stock market? You claim you have medical because your a vet. So people who aren't vet's shouldn't have medical benefits? When the US government declares bankruptcy, do you really think they will honor their veteran's health or pension plans? The industry standard pay for AMTS is $35+ hour not $23-hour this standard was set by UPS,Southwest,Fed-Ex,Northwest(before the strike),AA(pre TWU sellout),etc.. $23/hr should be the starting wage for an AMT out of A+P school. Why do you work for such substandard wages?

I dont deny that there are risks in the market, but if played well, and mot importantly DIVERSIFIED, its still one of the best investments out there. (although real estate is always good as well.)As for the next stock market crash, there already have been several, most recently due to 9-11. Alot of investers panicked, and sold at a miserable loss. The market now has recovered to near its pre 9-11 level, only this time is built more on solid long term investors vice internet instant analyst day traders. As an aside, You got me thinking..how many companies trading in 1929 are still in business? And how much would stock in them purchased pre crash of 1929 be worth today? I dont know the answer to this, but it is food for thought.
Now, on to social security...it was originally meant ONLY as a safety net for the poorest and most down trodden. It was never meant to be the monstrosity it is today. Anyone who thinks SS will still be solvent in 30 years is a bigger optimist than I.
As for VA benifits, all I can say is MOST able bodied individuals had access to the same route I took in training, discipline, and bennies. Nothing was offered to me that was not available to anyone else. That they chose a different path, while perfectly ok, is not my concern. I know that sounds callous, but such is life. We all must choose the road we travel, and some choices give more back than others. The key word is CHOICES. For those few who are GENUINELY unable to provide for themselves, I believe we as a society do have an obligation to tend to thier needs. But I should not be FORCED to provide support for someone whose CHOIcES led them to require aid.
Now about the industry average pay scale..I was refering to Aviation as a whole, not just the Major carriers. This includes fbo's, repair stations, and G.A.
In conclusion, if, as you say, the US declares bankruptcy, the nation goes tits up, (No offense to the fairer sex), and the world in general goes to hell in a handbasket, I still got land with streams full of fish, woods full of deer, and a cabin with a bear skin rug in front of the fireplace. I plan on heading to the U.P. of Michigan, and telling the rest of y'all to have a nice day!

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

CSAR, What a big hypocrite you are. You claim you're a veteran(I would assume retired from your posts). Here you are drawing down a government pension yet you criticize the people who are fighting to keep theirs?! Here you are sucking off the government tit yourself and yet you blast Social Security?! If you're scabbing at NWA, you really are a sorry human being. Helping to destroy other's pensions and benefits while you keep yours is not the American way.

 

[Opus]

I dont deny that there are risks in the market, but if played well, and mot importantly DIVERSIFIED, its still one of the best investments out there. (although real estate is always good as well.)As for the next stock market crash, there already have been several, most recently due to 9-11. Alot of investers panicked, and sold at a miserable loss. The market now has recovered to near its pre 9-11 level, only this time is built more on solid long term investors vice internet instant analyst day traders. As an aside, You got me thinking..how many companies trading in 1929 are still in business? And how much would stock in them purchased pre crash of 1929 be worth today? I dont know the answer to this, but it is food for thought.
Now, on to social security...it was originally meant ONLY as a safety net for the poorest and most down trodden. It was never meant to be the monstrosity it is today. Anyone who thinks SS will still be solvent in 30 years is a bigger optimist than I.
As for VA benifits, all I can say is MOST able bodied individuals had access to the same route I took in training, discipline, and bennies. Nothing was offered to me that was not available to anyone else. That they chose a different path, while perfectly ok, is not my concern. I know that sounds callous, but such is life. We all must choose the road we travel, and some choices give more back than others. The key word is CHOICES. For those few who are GENUINELY unable to provide for themselves, I believe we as a society do have an obligation to tend to thier needs. But I should not be FORCED to provide support for someone whose CHOIcES led them to require aid.
Now about the industry average pay scale..I was refering to Aviation as a whole, not just the Major carriers. This includes fbo's, repair stations, and G.A.
In conclusion, if, as you say, the US declares bankruptcy, the nation goes tits up, (No offense to the fairer sex), and the world in general goes to hell in a handbasket, I still got land with streams full of fish, woods full of deer, and a cabin with a bear skin rug in front of the fireplace. I plan on heading to the U.P. of Michigan, and telling the rest of y'all to have a nice day!

How very nice, to see someone who understands firstly that their self worth is not based on their per hour wage and secondly someone who can look into the future and make choices for themselves, and accept the responsibility for their choices. Wow a true rarity on these boards. I fully agree with everything you said except one thing. Our county will have to join all the other industrialized nations soon and provide socialized medicine for Americans. That will not only boost the stock market and help the insurance companies but allow employers to offer supplemental insurance rather than primary insurance which in turn will benefit their bottom line tremendously and help to make America competitive again. My hats off to you congratulations on your indepth ability to form meaningful cohierent thought for your self, unlike so many.

 

[aafsc]

How very nice, to see someone who understands firstly that their self worth is not based on their per hour wage and secondly someone who can look into the future and make choices for themselves, and accept the responsibility for their choices. Wow a true rarity on these boards. I fully agree with everything you said except one thing. Our county will have to join all the other industrialized nations soon and provide socialized medicine for Americans. That will not only boost the stock market and help the insurance companies but allow employers to offer supplemental insurance rather than primary insurance which in turn will benefit their bottom line tremendously and help to make America competitive again. My hats off to you congratulations on your indepth ability to form meaningful cohierent thought for your self, unlike so many.

Opus, even though I disagree with your scabbing, I would like to expound on the socialized medicine part of your post. Socialized medicine in this country will be very difficult to obtain due to the powerful insurance and drug companies and their lobbyists. Also, this country has always been to the right of center politically which translates into no socialized medicine. However, many companies, especially foreign ones, have been avoiding locating plants here in the U.S. due to the extreme high cost of medical insurance for would be employees. Instead, many have went to Canada where the social medical system pays for the treatment.

 

[NWA/AMT]

THen how is it that Ludwig himself, with all his vast experience, admits to being unable to find a job because he's "..that Union Guy"? His words exactly. Just a thought.....

Ted has been the, very visible, face of AMFA in MSP and apparently feels he's being blacklisted for it. I don't know about you, but that's not the America I went in the Corps to defend. Just a thought.

Anyone not hiring Ted is missing out on a heck of a mechanic, not just a parts changer. I know he'd be welcome here at UPS.

I dont unload my tool box for under 23 an hour, simply because that is about the INDUSTRY average.

Funny, until recently the industry average was around $25 per hour. Care to guess why it went down?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

CZAR, if you are counting on the stock market for your retirement, you're gonna be one poor individual when the next stock market crash sends the USA into the "Greatest Depression". This country is in same position it was in 1929, except this time there will be little or no manufacturing base to cushion the blow and our government will be bankrupt because of huge budget deficits.

My beloved Princess, you are a pessimist to no end. Do you ever have anything good to say or is everything fire and brimstone? Do you have a basement in your house filled with guns and dried goods?

Do yourself a favor and set you panic indicator to go off when your U.S. Treasury check bounces during tax return season.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

My beloved Princess, you are a pessimist to no end. Do you ever have anything good to say or is everything fire and brimstone? Do you have a basement in your house filled with guns and dried goods?

Do yourself a favor and set you panic indicator to go off when your U.S. Treasury check bounces during tax return season.

Yes, my house(which is paid for) is armed to the teeth. Rifles,shotguns,pistols,knives,ammo,etc. I also have a store of emergency food,water,supplies,and medicine ready to go. Your U.S. Treasury check is backed by bonds that are owned mostly by the People's Republic of China. So, when the Reds bankrupt the Feds by calling in their bond money. Don't come by my place looking for something to eat, when the U.S. economy implodes.

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

CSAR, What a big hypocrite you are. You claim you're a veteran(I would assume retired from your posts). Here you are drawing down a government pension yet you criticize the people who are fighting to keep theirs?! Here you are sucking off the government tit yourself and yet you blast Social Security?! If you're scabbing at NWA, you really are a sorry human being. Helping to destroy other's pensions and benefits while you keep yours is not the American way.

You are in error when you assumed I am a retiree. I served 10 years in the corps, left active duty in 95, and joined a Navy special warfare/CSAR unit as a reservist. I was honorably discharged completely from the military in 1998. After 9-11 I re-applied at a local guard unit, with a request for immediate deployment to the sandbox. The Guard decided that due to my age and combat experience, I would be more valuable as a stateside instructor. Family and civilian work requirements forced my early withdrawal before I was abe to get a transfer to a forward deployed unit. I am currently in an IRR status, although , again due to my age, it is unlikely that I will ever have the honor to serve in combat again. If and/or when my current position with NWA is no longer needed, I shall accept L3 vertec's offer to return me to Iraq as a civilian contractor doing the exact same thing I did as a marine, only getting paid about 140,000 a year to do it.
As of this moment, I do not draw a dime from the GOVT. However, are you suggesting that our proud warriors are not deserving of every dime they recieve for thier service? Personally, I feel a warrior who put his or her life on the line for this nation is BY FAR AND ABOVE more deserving of a pension than any who has not made that incredible sacrifice. This is not meant as a slam to ANYONE, union or not. This is merely saying that service to our country is something more than most have given, and our vets should be recognized as such.....but then again, I'm just a dumb Jarhead with a high school education...what the hell do I know?

 

[local 12 proud]

any one who sales his "AMERICAN" amt brothers out for a meager bone is no friend of mine and your trip back to IRAQ cant come fast enough for this hard working proud american. you are a disgrace to the MARINES you sell out peice of crap, YOU would probably abandon your post for T-BONE......your dog #### in a corpsmen's eyes!

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

Opus, even though I disagree with your scabbing, I would like to expound on the socialized medicine part of your post. Socialized medicine in this country will be very difficult to obtain due to the powerful insurance and drug companies and their lobbyists. Also, this country has always been to the right of center politically which translates into no socialized medicine. However, many companies, especially foreign ones, have been avoiding locating plants here in the U.S. due to the extreme high cost of medical insurance for would be employees. Instead, many have went to Canada where the social medical system pays for the treatment.

In regards to sociali-.....ah, never mind...this is an aviation board. I'll save it for my Libertarian sites. By the way opus, thanks for the kind words.