We need one union for all AMTs in the USA

[aafsc]

Got a few questions.

What happened to the IAM at Continental back in the 80s?

Spanked right?

What happened to the IAM at EAL?

Spanked again right?

What happened to the IAM when NWA and Delta merged?

Same thing as AMFA right?

AMFA had about as much of a chance at avoiding its Strike at NWA as the IAM did at Continental and EAL, there was no way you are going to get a majority of workers to vote themslelves of of a job.

What happened to the IAM at USAIR?

Settled for bottom of the industry pay.

What happened to the IAM at UAL.

Booted out for giving everything away.

How many members has the IAM lost between the last two Conventions?

So the IAM doesnt have much to crow about. Maybe its time for the unions to reassess things and start to think about the members for a change. Do we really need three seperate AFL-CIO unions representing airline workers? Wouldnt the "Stregnth in numbers" principle be more effective if these three unions were to merge and form one big union? The IAM cancelled plans to utilize secondary pickets as permitted by the RLA during the EAL dispute because they were afraid they might get fined. They lead people out of work but then when faced with a finacial impact to the organization backed off, sad. Maybe instead of sitting back and rooting for the companies in a labor dispute simply because you figure the other union is a rival for members you could put your claimed ideology to work and actually take the slogans you chant to heart "An injury to one is an injury to all" . How did AMFAs defeat help the IAM or its members? Do you feel that it setback all workers or just AMFA members? How you answer those questions determines whether or not you are a real unionist or just a cultist.

No Bob, EAL did not spank the IAM, the IAM spanked EAL; in fact, it wasn't a "spanking" , it was a beheading. Yes, it was a fight to the death and the IAM picket lines were still standing strong for about a week after EAL's permanent shutdown. I'm no cheerleader for the IAM (like 700) but unionism doesn't get any better than the IAM/EAL strike which lasted for 2 years due to rock solid picket lines (very few crossed). When compared to the IAM/EAL strike, the AMFA/NW "strike" was a week kneed, limp wristed affair which only lasted a couple of months because LARGE NUMBERS OF AMFA MECHANICS CROSSED THEIR OWN PICKET LINE. The fact that the IAM did pushbacks in a few stations was not the reason for AMFA's slaughter at NW. These two strikes highlight the differences between "strength in numbers" as advocated by industrial unions vs "strength in skill" as advocated by AMFA. You blame everyone but AMFA for AMFA's failure at NW. Here are some quotes purportedly made by the AMFA leadership at NW: "Strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength"; he obviously forgot (or ignored) the IAM/EAL strike. "Strength in skill", how did that work out? "Andersen (and/or Steenland) is a 'breath of fresh air'". Where was his nose when he made this statement? I think we all know the answer. And finally, "NW management will respect us."; in the belief that this "respect" came about by separating themselves from the "lowly ramp rats". Yeah NW management surely showed them respect alright, all the way out the door. Whats more AMFA agreed to and signed on to the terms imposed by NW and granted the scabs amnesty, whereas the IAM at EAL NEVER accepted the imposed contract and never granted amnesty to the scabs; now I ask you, which union performed better?

Bob, you stated that, "there was no way you are going to get a majority of workers to vote themselves out of a job." But the AMFA members at NW did just that when they voted AMFA in on the property. When AMFA first came in there were 10,500, the day day before the strike there were 4,400 . 6,100, or 58% ( a majority) lost their jobs as AMFA members due to layoff. With so few left to replace, NW was able to bust AMFA.

Another poster stated that the mechanics have a right to choose who represents them; and I totally agree. I think the mechanics should have their own craft union simply because the nature of their work is totally different (like pilots, etc.). But when your craft union totally fails you like AMFA at NW, don't blame those whom you've(not you Bob, but others)always despised and couldn't wait to get away from. I'm glad that AMFA got in at NW. Why? Because we finally got to see their "go it alone, strength in skill" mantra put to the test. When I was at EAL there were AMTs trying to bring AMFA on the property spewing the typical AMFA lines. Even during the heat of battle between the IAM and EAL management, AMFA was trying to get in thus hindering the battle against management; I can clearly remember the rhetoric and the pornographically suggestive drawings of "cooperation" between EAL's and the IAM's leadership. This is why I have a great interest in studying the NW/AMFA case. If AMFA had been able to get on the EAL property; EAL would have won the strike just as NW won theirs; but history has clearly shown that the IAM was victor at EAL while AMFA was the vanquished at NW.

The one thing I totally agree with you on are the secondary pickets. The IAM international and the other unions didn't want the financial and legal risks and the other airlines and their employees saw the business/career opportunities that would occur from a liquidated EAL.

 

[lineguy43]

No Bob, EAL did not spank the IAM, the IAM spanked EAL; in fact, it wasn't a "spanking" , it was a beheading. Yes, it was a fight to the death and the IAM picket lines were still standing strong for about a week after EAL's permanent shutdown. I'm no cheerleader for the IAM (like 700) but unionism doesn't get any better than the IAM/EAL strike which lasted for 2 years due to rock solid picket lines (very few crossed). When compared to the IAM/EAL strike, the AMFA/NW "strike" was a week kneed, limp wristed affair which only lasted a couple of months because LARGE NUMBERS OF AMFA MECHANICS CROSSED THEIR OWN PICKET LINE. The fact that the IAM did pushbacks in a few stations was not the reason for AMFA's slaughter at NW. These two strikes highlight the differences between "strength in numbers" as advocated by industrial unions vs "strength in skill" as advocated by AMFA. You blame everyone but AMFA for AMFA's failure at NW. Here are some quotes purportedly made by the AMFA leadership at NW: "Strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength"; he obviously forgot (or ignored) the IAM/EAL strike. "Strength in skill", how did that work out? "Andersen (and/or Steenland) is a 'breath of fresh air'". Where was his nose when he made this statement? I think we all know the answer. And finally, "NW management will respect us."; in the belief that this "respect" came about by separating themselves from the "lowly ramp rats". Yeah NW management surely showed them respect alright, all the way out the door. Whats more AMFA agreed to and signed on to the terms imposed by NW and granted the scabs amnesty, whereas the IAM at EAL NEVER accepted the imposed contract and never granted amnesty to the scabs; now I ask you, which union performed better?

Bob, you stated that, "there was no way you are going to get a majority of workers to vote themselves out of a job." But the AMFA members at NW did just that when they voted AMFA in on the property. When AMFA first came in there were 10,500, the day day before the strike there were 4,400 . 6,100, or 58% ( a majority) lost their jobs as AMFA members due to layoff. With so few left to replace, NW was able to bust AMFA.

Another poster stated that the mechanics have a right to choose who represents them; and I totally agree. I think the mechanics should have their own craft union simply because the nature of their work is totally different (like pilots, etc.). But when your craft union totally fails you like AMFA at NW, don't blame those whom you've(not you Bob, but others)always despised and couldn't wait to get away from. I'm glad that AMFA got in at NW. Why? Because we finally got to see their "go it alone, strength in skill" mantra put to the test. When I was at EAL there were AMTs trying to bring AMFA on the property spewing the typical AMFA lines. Even during the heat of battle between the IAM and EAL management, AMFA was trying to get in thus hindering the battle against management; I can clearly remember the rhetoric and the pornographically suggestive drawings of "cooperation" between EAL's and the IAM's leadership. This is why I have a great interest in studying the NW/AMFA case. If AMFA had been able to get on the EAL property; EAL would have won the strike just as NW won theirs; but history has clearly shown that the IAM was victor at EAL while AMFA was the vanquished at NW.

The one thing I totally agree with you on are the secondary pickets. The IAM international and the other unions didn't want the financial and legal risks and the other airlines and their employees saw the business/career opportunities that would occur from a liquidated EAL.

While I agree that mistakes were made by AMFA one fact remains true to form and that was the IAM always made the claim that we would never see 30 dollars an hour. My retirement at that time under the IAM was 40 dollars per month per yr of service. My very first AMFA contract at NW I saw a pay increase of 13 dollars an hour and my retirement went from 40 dollars to 85 dollars. Kind of makes the point that we were being held back being lumped in with everyone else doesn't it? What NWA did after 9/11 was to circumnavigate the contract under the force majure clause that every union contract has. NW chose to abuse it with AMFA because they did not know how to deal with such a militant union and wanted them gone and took unprecidented steps to make that happen with the help of the Bush administration the NMB and the FAA the media and the scabs helped NW get through that strike and even then they almost didnt pull it off. While I have issues with how AMFA handled things I for one am making more money then I ever have and I am non-union. I am paid this wage to keep the union out and I make this wage as a direct result of that very first AMFA contract at NW and that is a fact. We NWA AMFA mechanics set the bar for the industry. So thanks to the efforts of the IAM and others mechanics at most of the airlines were chopped right back down in wages..Thankfully SWA, FX and UPS have not done that. My take on one union for the industry is we had that dream once we tried to make it happen but at this point I do not ever see that as a dream anymore. There are too many in the ranks who are willing to scab their own. We put up a good fight .Yes we had some of our own cross our picket line but as a percentage it was pretty small..The majority of us remained honorable. I really do not hold out too much hope for us as a group..But best of luck to the AA guys having the TWU you guys will need it.

 

[Bob Owens]

No Bob, EAL did not spank the IAM, the IAM spanked EAL; in fact, it wasn't a "spanking" , it was a beheading. Yes, it was a fight to the death and the IAM picket lines were still standing strong for about a week after EAL's permanent shutdown. I'm no cheerleader for the IAM (like 700) but unionism doesn't get any better than the IAM/EAL strike which lasted for 2 years due to rock solid picket lines (very few crossed). When compared to the IAM/EAL strike, the AMFA/NW "strike" was a week kneed, limp wristed affair which only lasted a couple of months because LARGE NUMBERS OF AMFA MECHANICS CROSSED THEIR OWN PICKET LINE. The fact that the IAM did pushbacks in a few stations was not the reason for AMFA's slaughter at NW. These two strikes highlight the differences between "strength in numbers" as advocated by industrial unions vs "strength in skill" as advocated by AMFA. You blame everyone but AMFA for AMFA's failure at NW. Here are some quotes purportedly made by the AMFA leadership at NW: "Strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength"; he obviously forgot (or ignored) the IAM/EAL strike. "Strength in skill", how did that work out? "Andersen (and/or Steenland) is a 'breath of fresh air'". Where was his nose when he made this statement? I think we all know the answer. And finally, "NW management will respect us."; in the belief that this "respect" came about by separating themselves from the "lowly ramp rats". Yeah NW management surely showed them respect alright, all the way out the door. Whats more AMFA agreed to and signed on to the terms imposed by NW and granted the scabs amnesty, whereas the IAM at EAL NEVER accepted the imposed contract and never granted amnesty to the scabs; now I ask you, which union performed better?

Fair enough, the IAM did a good job with the EAL strike, they learned a few things from their loss at Continental. But conditions were more favorable.
Prior to the EAL strike AA was giving us $100 for every resume from an A&P we could get them. The EAL mechanics went on strike when there was a shortage of mechanics, they didnt spend much time on the unemployment line, most were scooped up by the other carriers. Nearly all the carriers were hiring at the time and the EAL strike was a Godsend for the rest of the industry. Still EAL was able to pick up scabs. Many of those who struck where already at their new jobs as they continued waliking the picket lines. When the Judge released NWA/AMFA there was no shortage. Every carrier had either hundreds or thousands of mechanics on the street. EAL wasnt spanked by the just the IAM, other unions joined the pickets such as the pilots, Flight attendants and other workers, but EAL still limped along for another year. In the end EAL workers lost their jobs, moved on to their new ones and EAL disapeared. It was a victory in that EAL workers were able to send a message that when workers unite across job classifications the carrier will not win. If the IAM had gone alone like they did at Continental the results may have been different. NWA did not face that, the other groups did not join the fight, there was a huge surpluss of mechanics, condistions could not have been more favorable, a divided labor front, weak economy and huge supluss of laid off airline workers but still they limped, had a reduced schedule and were eventually bought out by Delta. I agree that AMFA should have just stayed out and not gone back in at NWA and in that respect the IAM did perform better but the IAM had several external factors that helped them, the IAM never signed a deal with EAL but then again there was no EAL to sign with.

Bob, you stated that, "there was no way you are going to get a majority of workers to vote themselves out of a job." But the AMFA members at NW did just that when they voted AMFA in on the property. When AMFA first came in there were 10,500, the day day before the strike there were 4,400 . 6,100, or 58% ( a majority) lost their jobs as AMFA members due to layoff. With so few left to replace, NW was able to bust AMFA.

The offer that NWA put on the table would have required more than half the guys to vote yes to a contract that would put them out of a job.

Lineguy explained the Force Majeure and he was there. How many mechanics did UAL have in 2001 and how many did the IAM let them get rid of? About the same percentage drop as NWA.
How well did the IAM perform at Continental? The point is that unions should never work for the other side. AMFA no doubt made mistakes and without a doubt many mechanics make the false assumption that they can elevate themselves by stepping on others but the end result was not a defeat for just AMFA but all of labor. Companies and weak kneed union leaders hold the NWA example up as a reason to not fight at all, regardless of what union you have, not just as a reason not to go independant.

The IAM international and the other unions didn't want the financial and legal risks and the other airlines and their employees saw the business/career opportunities that would occur from a liquidated EAL.

It was their intention to picket the Rails in NYC that would have made the biggest impact. The Rail unions had already said they would not cross and NYC would shut down without them.

For the record I think Charlie Bryan did a great job but that the IAM failed to give him full support. Shutting down EAL helped sustain wages across the industry, that plus a demand for workers at the time. Ten years later AMFA without a doubt helped elevate mechanics wages and even at AA, UAL, and USAIR wages were elevated because of what the mechanics under at NWA did in 2000. We saw larger gains than everyone except the pilots. No one can deny that, AMFAs gains were made possible by another shortage of mechanics at the time but the incumbant unions failed to recognize the opportunity . Even to this day the gains made by mechanics as a result of what happened at NWA in 2000 remain in place relative to their coworkers in other departments. Sadly all the other unions had folded by 2003, leaving NWA Mechanics exposed at a time when conditions were most unfavorable. NWA management siezed the opportunity, no doubt confident that they would succeded based on the extreme hatred of AMFA that the IAM had, which would guarantee that the AFL-CIO affiliated ALPA would stay out of it as well, AMFA lost at NWA but so did the IAM, where are they now? AMFA went out in a blaze with full pay till the last day while the IAM simply faded away after accepting concession after concession. Even under more favorable voting rules the workers at the combined Delta/NWA voted against IAM representation.

The fact is that AMFA is the byproduct of the dysfunctional structure of the airline labor movement. AMFA was formed at AA in hangar 10 at JFK by mechanics who wanted their own local within the TWU. AMFA and other unions will continue to pop up as long as the Unions in this industry fail to perform and they will continue to fail to perform if they maintain their current structure. The airline labor movement must consolidate. The IAM, IBT and TWU should get together and merge. Establish divisions within the combined union to address each groups concerns, standardize wages and benifits and modify workrules and guidelines to lessen the affects of assett movement between corporations and elevate workers portability within the industry. Its something that most people agree on, even the leaders of the unions, or so they say, but they lack the motivation to make that happen because they themselves do not personally suffer from the inadequacy of the status quo, in fact they benefit from it.

This industry is facing a serious shortage of both pilots and mechanics. This can be verified by looking at the amount of Mechanics and Pilots licenses issued by the FAA, Both are way down. The mechanic shortage is more advanced in that there are fewer with recall rights still out there but our representational structure either refuses or is unable to capitalize on it, the pilots shortage is not as advanced in that there are many still on recall however they are better positioned to capitalize on it and the drop in original certificates issed is even more drastic, (over 50%). The recent strike at Spirit ilustrated the strong position pilots have (Spirit had claimed that they would be able to fly through the strike but it couldnt.).


These shortages present all airline workers an opportunity to make gains but only if we support each other.

 

[tech2101]

As far as I know, no IAM or IBT person fixed airplanes, now did they?

AMFA got their rear ends spanked, caved in to settle and let the scabs stay in place.

They lost a major case at ACA which let the company do anything they wanted to do and not have to keep the status quo in a newly organized group.

They got kicked off the property when DL/NW merged, have crappy CBA at AS and inherited the IBT CBA at WN.

And if they are so great, why did UA AMTs vote them out?

Never got enough cards at US to hold an election.

Put the koolade down.

Stop defending the Scab IAM union. Are you going to turn this thread into another rehash of our AMFA strike at NWA?

 

[Borescope]

Where's "Cods" when you need him?

 

[700UW]

Stop defending the Scab IAM union. Are you going to turn this thread into another rehash of our AMFA strike at NWA?

Truth hurts huh?

LOL

 

[Kev3188]

Who the hell is ACA?

Atlantic Coast Airlines. Used to be a feeder for UA, then went it alone as Independence Air. No longer exists.

Who is AS

Alaska Airlines.

IIRC, NW M&R and Ramp/Stores had their own contracts under IAM prior to AMFA.

You recall correctly.

Maybe its time for the unions to reassess things and start to think about the members for a change. Do we really need three seperate AFL-CIO unions representing airline workers? Wouldnt the "Stregnth in numbers" principle be more effective if these three unions were to merge and form one big union? The IAM cancelled plans to utilize secondary pickets as permitted by the RLA during the EAL dispute because they were afraid they might get fined. They lead people out of work but then when faced with a finacial impact to the organization backed off, sad. Maybe instead of sitting back and rooting for the companies in a labor dispute simply because you figure the other union is a rival for members you could put your claimed ideology to work and actually take the slogans you chant to heart "An injury to one is an injury to all" . How did AMFAs defeat help the IAM or its members? Do you feel that it setback all workers or just AMFA members? How you answer those questions determines whether or not you are a real unionist or just a cultist.

We should all be so lucky.

Where's "Cods" when you need him?

Jesus. No.

 

[gatemech]

Back to the topic. I agree the AMT class and craft should have its own union industry wide. I also believe AMFA should be that union.

On another note what is to stop corruption if AMFA were to be that big? I understand certain jobs require a certain level of pay. Once
the execs get a taste of the better life then the quality of the leadership is gone and we are stuck with the same thing as you have
with the IBT. All new by-laws and rules would have to be written. I feel no top union official should bring in more than 100K a year.
Anymore and they lose perspective. Get a taste of some finer things and forget where they came from.

These are just my thoughts. That scenario may never come into play.

JUST VOTE NO ON THE T/A ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[whoop whoop]

Back to the topic. I agree the AMT class and craft should have its own union industry wide. I also believe AMFA should be that union.

On another note what is to stop corruption if AMFA were to be that big? I understand certain jobs require a certain level of pay. Once
the execs get a taste of the better life then the quality of the leadership is gone and we are stuck with the same thing as you have
with the IBT. All new by-laws and rules would have to be written. I feel no top union official should bring in more than 100K a year.
Anymore and they lose perspective. Get a taste of some finer things and forget where they came from.

These are just my thoughts. That scenario may never come into play.

JUST VOTE NO ON THE T/A ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ![/sizThere/quote]


There are 2 safety nets to diminish this outcome. There is a recall system that only takes 25% of the membership to trigger a recall vote at ANY time. The second, after that ELECTED officer that just screwed the membership leaves office by time or recall, has to come back to the floor. In AMFA there is no appointed positions for him to sliver into. Every position is ELECTED by the membership. Total control. That is a union controled by the membership. AMFA, for mechanics by mechanics.

 

[Bob Owens]

Back to the topic. I agree the AMT class and craft should have its own union industry wide. I also believe AMFA should be that union.

On another note what is to stop corruption if AMFA were to be that big? I understand certain jobs require a certain level of pay. Once
the execs get a taste of the better life then the quality of the leadership is gone and we are stuck with the same thing as you have
with the IBT. All new by-laws and rules would have to be written. I feel no top union official should bring in more than 100K a year.
Anymore and they lose perspective. Get a taste of some finer things and forget where they came from.

These are just my thoughts. That scenario may never come into play.

JUST VOTE NO ON THE T/A ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

So you feel they should make less than the people they represent? I agree that they should not make a whole lot more but mechanics at UPS and SWA easily earn $100k. So at those places assuming a leadership position would be a paycut.

 

[gatemech]

So you feel they should make less than the people they represent? I agree that they should not make a whole lot more but mechanics at UPS and SWA easily earn $100k. So at those places assuming a leadership position would be a paycut.

Maybe I should have said it different. I just don't think that some of the pay our IBT business reps receive is realistic.
I'm not sure what a top union rep should make.

 

[signals]

Ladies and Gentlemen, you're both correct. I believe if we use NWA as a role model, AMFA brought them down and the IAM sold the high wage employees out to cheaper labor. The cheaper labor were still unionized represented by the IAM.

Your industry seems to be mastering union-busting and it is mostly due to the divide-and-conquer principal. You are your own worst enemies...just an observation.

I love how some people use the word 'scabs' to describe union brothers and sisters that don't agree with their views. Scabs are still non-union as far ass I know.

In conclusion, pick your union as a majority...but stay UNION!

 

[Bob Owens]

Maybe I should have said it different. I just don't think that some of the pay our IBT business reps receive is realistic.
I'm not sure what a top union rep should make.

If we were making what we should be making I could care less what they make. When they lack the will to lead the fight to get more, and even make excuses for the company thats when i not only feel they are overpaid, but that they dont belong in those positions.

I have to wonder how the IBT rationalizes bringing back $36/hr for UAL and CO when they brought back $50 for UPS. Are you guys in diferent Locals? The excuses they put forward are BS. Historically Cargo outfits had to offer more to attract mechanics because they didnt offer flight benefits. But the difference wasnt huge. Well flight benefits really arent worth much anymore. With the passenger Airlines monies that could and should be going to us is being used to build fancy terminals and other non-essential improvements to wow the customers. Well with very little excess capacity people dont really have that much of a choice any more.

 

[gatemech]

Even if we had one union in the USA for all AMT's there is no way the government would allow one airlines
AMT's to strike with another. Uncle Sam has to much control.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Even if we had one union in the USA for all AMT's there is no way the government would allow one airlines
AMT's to strike with another. Uncle Sam has to much control.

You MIGHT be correct. But with this type of thought AMTs are doomed to fail before we even try and make a difference for our craft.

If all AMTs were to come under one union and one airline did strike the other airlines do not necessarily have to strike too. If this scenario did take place in the future rest assured that striking airlines' AMTs will find support from their Brother & Sisters. "Uncle Sam" might have to much control but the control will be in the hands of the skilled professionals holding the wrench.