Aircraft Maintenance Outsourcing

[atabuy]

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On 4/16/2003 5:07:28 PM UAL_TECH wrote:

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Atabuy,
I agree (in part), as I also know management people that I would not allow overseeing my lawn care.

There is much to be said for ''walking to the floor'' hands-on maintenance. 
I TRULY "IMHO" do not like to see UAL (as an industry leader) relinquish our ability to perform immediate corrections/recommendations to maintenance related items through our technicians, and engineering staff.  Throughout our history, we have corrected maintenance anomalies ''ON-THE-SPOT'', and have had our engineering solutions adopted by the FAA, and OEM.  In many cases we have ''invented'' maintenance solutions that have benefited the industry.  We have formed a group of individuals that truly believe in ''Safety is Number One'', and I "IMHO" perceive an industry vacuum for the services that we have provided.
Of course, the ''media'' will always focus on our deficiencies without recognizing the phenomenal gains that we ''as a company'' have provided to the industry at large.

This is what I infer with my simplistic ''outsourcing'' post.

IMHO,
UT

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UT,
It all boils down to simple competition for the work.
There are a few ways Ual would have kept work in house.
1. Mechanics would have to decrease wages in line to what it costs to do the job on the outside.
2. Mechanics would have to bring up their productivity levels and change work rules.

If you were the company dealing with mechanics who were saying full pay until the last day, What alternative would you have.
Maybe you were not saying this but 70 % of the mechanics were.

I talked with mechanics and told them things would not get better by forcing BK. Too bad they did not listen to my advice.

For the most part you guys are paying the toll for bad judgement.
That''s as simplistic as I can get.

Sometimes we all think we are in control of things, but when it is all said and done, management holds all the cards. I don''t like it either, but this is the way it goes.
Don''t ever think they play on a fair playing field. The odds always favor them.

 

[chachaual]

I would like to see that report. I still don't think that outsourcing maintenance will affect safety. Southwest outsourcing all their HMV for 30 years, Continental also outsourcing their HMV after their exit the second chapter 11, I haven't seen any safety problem with these airlines. There seems to be no concern about outsourcing then, why all the sudden everyone have safety concern when UAL want to outsource their HMV to the same OSV locations as others.

 

[will fix for food]

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On 4/16/2003 1036 PM Boomer wrote:

Seems the US Government issued a grant to study the issue of outsourcing. The finished study as well as the draft report are available.

I''m "out of pocket" at the present time but will send the link(s) ASAP.

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Please do.

 

[Steiner]

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On 4/16/2003 10:09:41 PM oldpilot wrote:

Interesting discussion you are having here. I agree the company will lose some of the advangages of doing all maint. work inhouse. However, all those other carriers that outsource most or all of their heavy maint. are flying just fine. Their airplanes are not falling out of the sky. How do you answer that issue? Curious.

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Suay mai? Since the airplanes are not falling out of the sky, it must be a safe practice and there should be no worries about outsourcing heavy maintenance. Kinda reminds me of when the employees of Alaska Air were calling the FAA and the Seattle Times to try to stop the cutting of corners, and nothing was done to address their complaints. What we are seeing is the removal of layers of safety from the industry. Who knows, maybe the airlines are too safe, and it is acceptable and economical to forego a few inspections and skip some training. Maybe there is too much oversight in the maintenance field.

 

[insp89]

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On 4/16/2003 10:09:41 PM oldpilot wrote:

 

[kcabpilot]

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On 4/16/2003 10:09:41 PM oldpilot wrote:

Interesting discussion you are having here. I agree the company will lose some of the advangages of doing all maint. work inhouse. However, all those other carriers that outsource most or all of their heavy maint. are flying just fine. Their airplanes are not falling out of the sky. How do you answer that issue? Curious.

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I can only tell you that I (an old mechanic) have seen the quality problems of outscourced maintenance. I''ve seen an erosion of the checks and balances that have kept this industry safe. In the past few years I''ve seen some things that have made my jaw drop.

But if you want to wait until "airplanes fall out of the sky" what can I do?

I''m just a stupid old Mechanic.

 

[WO/drone]

I am not an UAL person, but at my airline we have been outsourcing some heavy checks and they have caused numerouse delays and cancels. Although the airline is still responsible for all maintenance performed on their behalf, even outsourced checks. I don''t see much good in the long run for outsourcing either. Contract mechanics were the future wave a few years ago, what happened? No control over skill or loyalty, they are drying up. Major carriers need as much control over maintenance as possible, I don''t think that outsourcing will do it.

 

[aircraft_artificer]

"The other carriers have been doing it for a long time..."
The fact is that SWA and AW are bringing their work "BACK" in house. AW had to after the fines the FAA imposed due to shoddy workmanship and controls. BTW one note the GM of maint at AW "farmed out his own job" the left after being a road rep for a while. To where? Yup good ol UAL and has now farmed out his job there as well as mgr in Indy. SWA has seen what is happeneing to their A/C even management has noted how trashed they have become. So now they bring it in house to fix what the outsource has messed up. But again many that read and post here do not believe as there are no smoking holes in the ground, "YET".

 

[atabuy]

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On 4/22/2003 719 AM aircraft_artificer wrote:

"The other carriers have been doing it for a long time..."

The fact is that SWA and AW are bringing their work "BACK" in house. AW had to after the fines the FAA imposed due to shoddy workmanship and controls. BTW one note the GM of maint at AW "farmed out his own job" the left after being a road rep for a while. To where? Yup good ol UAL and has now farmed out his job there as well as mgr in Indy. SWA has seen what is happeneing to their A/C even management has noted how trashed they have become. So now they bring it in house to fix what the outsource has messed up. But again many that read and post here do not believe as there are no smoking holes in the ground, "YET".

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aircraft_artificer
Do you know what companies are doing the outsourcing work for Ual?
Does everyone who works on the planes need a license?
What do you mean by shoddy workmanship?
Do we have inspectors who sign off the airplane when it comes back to us?
Are the outsourcing companies responsible for making these problems right?
What is the difference in pay between Ual and the outsource mechanics?

 

[wts54]

no we dont have company inspectors at osv shops.
did you see photos of the nlg that turned sideways
on landing at ord? what quality control problems? duh !!
no everyone that works on ual aircraft doesnt have to
have a license they can get anybody to do the work and
get one licensed person to sign it off.a secretary was
signing off work at one osv.

 

[wts54]

osv''s have a deadline to get the planes out or the osv pays for the delay
no matter how f***ed up the aircraft is.

 

[ual747mech]

Outside Vendor is like the K Mart of Aircraft Maintenance. Mechanics don''t need to be licensed, they have a high turn over ratio. Mechanics don''t get paid premium, it''s the minimum wage of Aircraft Maintenance. It''s a stepping stone for better paying career in Aircraft Maintenance. They go there to get experience then go somewhere better as soon as they can. Mechanics are pressured to mass produce. Quantity is first before quality.

Put all that together and the chance of aircraft leaving the facility with shoddy workmanship is very high.

 

[wts54]

I would think ge and pratt do a good job i have never heard
of any bad work from them.if this contract is approved they will
station ual inspectors at third party stations.

 

[Segue]

What about engine overhauls? Do manufacturers do this work (GE, Pratt)? Is it shoddy work or is it better to do internally?

 

[gatemech]

If I remember right when GE took over the CF6 overhaul from UA we only got about half the hours out of the engines. UA didn''t care one bit. The days of doing all maint. in house is gone. So is control & safety.