West pilot PBS

[BoeingBoy]

I bet you're still using Windows 3.0 and complaining that it's not as good as DOS....

Jim

 

[Ames]

Thanks Ames,

.
At the risk of being redundant can a pilot look at a specific trip before they bid? Now we have our trip pairings available to peruse before the bidding starts and you know everything important about the trip (trips) you are bidding. A moot point for me but if another pilot asks me my opinion of PBS I want to be able to provide the proper info. I could of course look it up in the west contract but I want the opinions of those who are using the PBS system now.

Yes, the pairings come out in printed form just prior to the bid opening. They are also on the PBS page.

 

[Ames]

What numbe are you bidding and do you commute??

NICDOA
NPJB

I was a junior captain on reserve, now a very senior FO and I commute four months a year.

 

[Ames]

No they don't "hate it".

Early 90s the USAir MEC ran a series of simulations with some three different vendors and up to 60% of senior choices were denied, even with the most expensive system available, something the company was not willing to spend money on.

The east has spent quite a bit of money researching the issue and while "hatred" is pretty strong, justified aversion is a more useful phrase.

It is not a money saver for the company, they refuse to cede the issue of placing their desired pilot on the trip they want him to be, therefore, we will always have the company interceding and making themselves comfortable, first. How much were you willing to give up to "get" PBS? I bet, a lot, and the company still has the last say, fronting the usual facade of "choice".

Nail those management bastard's feet to the floor, then we will talk.

Oh, and at least several employees believe the company, on the latest FA tentative, were trying to write their own PBS, with their own backdoors, etc. to run the system their own way. Anything like the QIK abortion?

Spew your venom, sealbeater. No one cares whether you like it or not. I simply laid out the facts and we have had PBS the better part of a decade. I believe you would have complained even after winning the recent mega millions lottery.

 

[Move2CLT]

Nail those management bastard's feet to the floor, then we will talk.

Holy crap I haven't laughed so hard in such a long time.

USAPA has been doing a great job of "nailing" Parker's feet to the floor.

You guys showed him how its done by getting enjoined and then parked!!

You've got him on the run boys!!

 

[crazystnic]

You have to remember that PBS is not some monolithic system that works the same at every airline. First, you have a strong dependence upon the software vendor. Then, you have to allow for how much does the company control the parameters. I have a friend who flies for Frontier and another who flies for Alaska. Both have pref bidding, but both also say that the PBS at Frontier is better than the PBS at Alaska. The Frontier software is programmed for maximum flexibility.

However, the friend at Frontier also says that since Republic took over, they have been "meddling" in the parameters, and the system is not as flexible as it used to be. Republic uses the "unstacking" process much more readily than was used previously. It reduces the number of pairings that end up in open time after the bids are run, but it also reduces bidder flexibility, and if you are more junior may take your original award away from you completely.

And so you really want to give this mgmt something they can meddle in and is not black and white.

That would be the definition of insanity

 

[Move2CLT]

And so you really want to give this mgmt something they can meddle in and is not black and white.

That would be the definition of insanity

Obviously someone who has no idea what he's talking about.

Gatekeeper? You do realize that no changes can be made without the union, right? The company can't go in an just tweak the parameters with us knowing.

And the definition of insanity is voluntarily staying on bankruptcy area wages and work rules.

 

[767one]

Obviously someone who has no idea what he's talking about.

Gatekeeper? You do realize that no changes can be made without the union, right? The company can't go in an just tweak the parameters with us knowing.

And the definition of insanity is voluntarily staying on bankruptcy area wages and work rules.

I started this thread wanting to get an understanding of PBS and thank all for their posts. What I have gotten out of the posts is that PBS at some airlines is better than at others due to software and parameters. In a perfect world I would consider PBS to be ok but we are not dealing with a perfect world or management. Quite frankly if we did get a contract and put both groups together I would expect our management to change vendors to something cheaper or backdoor some other sort of change and then tell us to grieve it. They just can't seem to break their habit of trying to pickpocket. At this point I'm sure that I still prefer the east system with the bid sheet and would vote accordingly if given the chance.

 

[jimntx]

I think you are right. All the posturing about gatekeepers and contracts is fine, except with PBS there is no way to prove that the company is messing with the parameters unless the #1 on the seniority list does not hold what he/she bid. There are no "bid lines" per se. There are just trips, or pairings--whatever you want to call them. PBS builds you a schedule from the trips that best meet your preferences AND falls within the range of trips your seniority can hold. (At AA, I can bid DFW-SEA turn lines all I want, but I'm not going to live long enough to hold any of them. 😱 )

Even though, AMR is trying to move to a PBS as part of the bankrupty term sheet, PBS requires a certain level of trust between company and employees. I wouldn't say that exists in large quantities here today.

Just for instance, what I posted about "unstacking" at Frontier? The ability to unstack has to fall within the company's right to insure that trips are covered on holidays--if you couldn't unstack, Thanksgiving and Christmas would be a nightmare of cancellations due to lack of crew. However, my friend at Frontier says she suspects that Republic finds a holiday to start unstacking for any day and month the system spits out more than a certain number of uncovered trips. Phillipines Independence Day, anyone?

 

[Move2CLT]

I started this thread wanting to get an understanding of PBS and thank all for their posts. What I have gotten out of the posts is that PBS at some airlines is better than at others due to software and parameters. In a perfect world I would consider PBS to be ok but we are not dealing with a perfect world or management. Quite frankly if we did get a contract and put both groups together I would expect our management to change vendors to something cheaper or backdoor some other sort of change and then tell us to grieve it. They just can't seem to break their habit of trying to pickpocket. At this point I'm sure that I still prefer the east system with the bid sheet and would vote accordingly if given the chance.

We would go AOS. It's what you and the east FAs have chosen.

With the proper oversight, the company cannot and, in our case, does not mess with parameters beyond setting up reserve coverage.

When the lines are run, our PBS guru(s) look over the results and either approve or disapprove the run. ALL THE PARAMETERS used to make the run are displayed first and our PBS gatekeeper doesn't even need those. By looking at the trips that come out, he can see if anything has been changed.

PBS, overall, has been successful here and most pilots you talk to here will say they'd never go back to line bidding. Your quality of line is directly related to the effort you put into learning the system.

Here's another plus that sold me.

Two pilots, #1 and #2 on the list, both ABQ commuters. One overnight in the bid package ABQ for 30 hours so both guys really want it with #1 getting it every month.

With a paper bid, #1 would get it along with whatever the rest of the month looked liked. And if #1 had vacation, that ABQ overnight would drop off his line and go to a reserve or into an open line so a pilot junior to #2 would get the ABQ overnight.

Too bad for #2.

But PBS would see #1 had vacation or training and not award him that ABQ overnight over that time away from the line. Instead, it would build #1's line around his vacation and then move to #2. With that ABQ overnight still available, #2 would be awarded it instead of it going to someone very junior.

So at least #2 has a chance to get that overnight every once in a while.

AND #1's month is more in line with what he wants and more than likely won't have to make any adjustments at all.

PBS will, once you have your parameters set, free you from managing your schedule.

 

[cleardirect]

A couple examples of pairing in the bid package. Using PBS you can put in your requests. More or less TAFB. Late check-in early release, whatever and sort for those things. There are 1 day, 2 day 3 day and 4 day pairings. Min 5:15 per day. On a 4 day trip there are a few 26:00 hour pairings with a 24 hour lay over. Next time you are in PHX pick up a bid package and take a look.

The key to all of this is control of the parameters that build the pairings. Which has nothing to do with PBS. Would be the same if we were paper bidding.
Next is getting control of the settings in PBS. The AFA figured this out and have 30 pages of rules. This is where usapa needs to be working not opposing PBS.

8402 TH REPORT AT 09.20/N EFFECTIVE APR 05 ONLY
1 CAPT, 1 F/O
DAY FLT. EQP DEPARTS ARRIVES BLK. BLK. DUTY CR. LAYOVER MO TU WE TR FR SA SU
05TH 334 L 320 PHX 1020 SJD 1326* 2.06 --
05TH 335 320 SJD 1416 PHX 1520 2.04 -- -- -- 5 -- -- --
05TH 073 320 PHX 1640 SEA 1935 2.55 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Roosevelt Hotel 7.05 10.30 7.05 SEA 18.05 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
(206) 621-1200 TRANS: Atlantic Trsp (206) 396-8377 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
06FR 009 320 SEA 1440 PHX 1730* 2.50 --
06FR 009 D 320 PHX 1840 ORD 2355 3.15
Holiday Inn Mt Prospect 6.05 8.15 6.05 ORD 28.10
(847) 392-0123
08SU 002 B 320 ORD 0505 PHX 0647 3.42
3.42 4.42 3.42
CREDIT HRS. 21.00 BLK. HRS. 16.52 LDGS: 6 TAFB 69.42

8816 MO REPORT AT 06.45/N EFFECTIVE APR 16 ONLY
1 CAPT, 1 F/O
DAY FLT. EQP DEPARTS ARRIVES BLK. BLK. DUTY CR. LAYOVER MO TU WE TR FR SA SU
16MO 001 320 PHX 0745 ORD 1303 3.18 --
Holiday Inn Mt Prospect 3.18 4.33 3.18 ORD 17.37 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
(847) 392-0123 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
17TU 114 B 320 ORD 0740 CLT 1035* 1.55 16 -- -- -- -- -- --
17TU 487 L 320 CLT 1150 DEN 1338 3.48 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Fairfield Inn DIA 5.43 7.58 5.43 DEN 15.17 --
(303) 576-9640
18WE 641 B 320 DEN 0555 PHX 0648 1.53
18WE 183 320 PHX 0850 FLL 1610 4.20
Sheraton FLL Airport 6.13 9.15 6.13 FLL 13.50
(954) 920-3500
19TH 506 B 320 FLL 0700 PHX 0917 5.17
5.17 6.17 5.17
CREDIT HRS. 21.00 BLK. HRS. 20.31 LDGS: 6 TAFB 74.47

 

[flyingskier]

A couple examples of pairing in the bid package. Using PBS you can put in your requests. More or less TAFB. Late check-in early release, whatever and sort for those things. There are 1 day, 2 day 3 day and 4 day pairings. Min 5:15 per day. On a 4 day trip there are a few 26:00 hour pairings with a 24 hour lay over. Next time you are in PHX pick up a bid package and take a look.

The key to all of this is control of the parameters that build the pairings. Which has nothing to do with PBS. Would be the same if we were paper bidding.
Next is getting control of the settings in PBS. The AFA figured this out and have 30 pages of rules. This is where usapa needs to be working not opposing PBS.

---------


In addition to PBS we would need to keep SAP (Schedule Adjustment Period) and the daily bid sheet, which should be automated. From how PBS is described by the west, it sounds alot like sap. In Move2's example above, the number 2 guy would pick up the ABQ trip in SAP. If it were to open after SAP runs, he could pick it up on the bid sheet two days out and drop the trip he had. The flexibility we have is unmatched in the industry and it would be a huge concession for us to give up SAP and the bid sheet.

Bottom line, PBS may be acceptable but we also need to keep SAP and the bid sheet.

Skier

 

[Move2CLT]

---------


In addition to PBS we would need to keep SAP (Schedule Adjustment Period) and the daily bid sheet, which should be automated. From how PBS is described by the west, it sounds alot like sap. In Move2's example above, the number 2 guy would pick up the ABQ trip in SAP. If it were to open after SAP runs, he could pick it up on the bid sheet two days out and drop the trip he had. The flexibility we have is unmatched in the industry and it would be a huge concession for us to give up SAP and the bid sheet.

Bottom line, PBS may be acceptable but we also need to keep SAP and the bid sheet.

Skier

You guys are bidding ALL THE TIME!

Why would you not rather see #2 get it AUTOMATICALLY instead of him having to pick it up?

 

[flyingskier]

You guys are bidding ALL THE TIME!

Not bidding, if we are happy with our line we bid once. If you have something come up that you need to make changes or if you are junior in your position and don't get the line you want, then yes we have the flexibility to make changes and "bid all the time" until we get a schedule that works for us. Easy.

Skier

 

[Move2CLT]

But as I stated before, wouldn't it be better if #2 was automatically awarded the ABQ RON instead of having to SAP for it?