What could be lost with a no vote

C

chipmunn

Guest
Nobody likes the turmoil airline employees have endured since September 11, but during the ratification process I believe it’s important for all of us to non-emotionally view what’s at stake if the TA’s are not ratified and US Airways ceases to exist as an on-going business entity.
US Airways and the other mature carriers are struggling with plans to combat their number one threat: low cost competitors. In the case of United and US Airways, these two airlines have sought court protection, with both airlines teetering on converting their formal reorganizations into a liquidation proceeding. US Airways is much further along in its restructuring with an end in site, but the Arlington-based airline is also closer to a Chapter 7 liquidation unless three objectives are obtained: ratification of remaining union TA’s, reaching an acceptable pension restoration funding solution with the PBGC; both of which are expected to qualify the company for further DIP/ATSB backed financing and an equity investment.
We have discussed why ratification of the TA’s are important for those who may be furloughed in the future. Ratified agreements would provide those who may be laid off in the future severance pay, medical/dental benefits, COBRA, continued retirement funding, travel privileges, recall rights, and if desired, “jet for job†opportunities. But, if a TA is rejected by the rank-and-file, none of these benefits would be available. In addition, for those who remain they would have continued pay and benefits as an option while they pursue other employment alternatives, if required.
However, if the TA’s are rejected employees may see their last pay check this week and immediately lose their medical insurance for themselves and their family members.
If US Airways is forced into a enterprise ending liquidation as early as January 2003 by any union rejecting a TA, here’s my understanding of what would occur:
1. Active Employee Pay – Would immediately cease with no payment made for worked already performed.
2. Furlough Pay - Would cease immediately, no further payments would be made, and there would be no income for these displaced employees.
3. Medical – There would be no COBRA coverage or ability to buy medical insurance through the company, thus some families could be without coverage whatsoever.
4. Term Pass – This benefit would be eliminated. Commuters would be stranded, there would be no free travel for job searches, and no free leisure travel. To some of our employees, the loss of this perk whether active or employed would be significant.
5. Life Insurance - Once the premium payment ends, the coverage stops. Employees would be able to convert to more expensive personal policies.
6. Long Term Disability Insurance – As with Life Insurance, LTD would stop. The only protected employee groups would be the pilots. Whose benefit would last for an additional 12-months due to VEBA. My understanding regarding the FAS is that the money is ear marked for this purpose but is not protected from Creditors.
7. Flexible Spending Account - These moneys are not held in trust; therefore, money held in these accounts could become general assets and once again employees could lose this money.
8. Salary Continuance (OJI) - These additional payments would cease, but the statutory benefit should continue.
9. Defined Contribution Retirement Plans - As long as the Company has made the employee and company contributions the moneys should be protected in the Fidelity Trust. However, if some of the contributions have not been made then EE's will become creditors and employees possibly losing some of this money as well.
10. Defined Benefit Retirement Plans – The PBGC will take over the plans and determine the best course of action. The Non-Qualified Plans, SEDC, and ESOP, which are very complicated, but these monies could be lost as well.
Obviously, this whole situation is unpleasant and is down right bad, but US Airways employees have their backs against the wall. Either US Airways obtains ratified labor accords and finds an acceptable retirement plan restoration solution or the airline dies, which would be bad for active, future furloughees, and furloughed employees alike.
Chip
 

Sidelined_03

Newbie
Dec 9, 2002
13
0
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[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/27/2002 12:52:57 AM Slam&Click wrote:
[P]Thanks for stating the obvious.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P align=left][/P]
[P align=left][FONT face="Comic Sans MS"]Next thing you know we will be informed that the sun rises in the east, sets in the west and taxes are due on april 15th, santa claus isnt real,new years day in january 1st, july 4th is independence day,the moon isnt made of cheese and the O in Filet O Fish means Of.[/FONT][/P]
 

Sidelined_03

Newbie
Dec 9, 2002
13
0
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[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/27/2002 12:52:57 AM Slam&Click wrote:
[P]Thanks for stating the obvious.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][FONT face="Comic Sans MS"][/FONT][/P]
[P align=left][FONT face="Comic Sans MS"] He's girding up to sell round number 4 to the employees.round 3 is the PBGC.[BR] Which I might add has a slim likelyhood of transpiring.To allow this sort of [BR] tampering with the pension payments will set a precedent for companies[BR] with grossly underfunded pension plans to lobby the PBGC to allow them[BR] to modify their contribution responsibilities.Which could lead to contributi[BR] ons not being made on schedule and Enron type accounting to leave pension[BR] ers with nothing.If they allow U to modify its 3 billion liability what are they[BR] going to tell general motors about their 31 billion dollar liability?[BR][BR] [/FONT][/P]
 
Dec 21, 2002
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0
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/27/2002 1:13:56 AM Sidelined_03 wrote:



[BLOCKQUOTE]
----------------
On 12/27/2002 12:52:57 AM Slam&Click wrote:


Thanks for stating the obvious.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]


[FONT face="Comic Sans MS"][/FONT][/P]
[P align=left][FONT face="Comic Sans MS"] He's girding up to sell round number 4 to the employees.round 3 is the PBGC.
Which I might add has a slim likelyhood of transpiring.To allow this sort of
tampering with the pension payments will set a precedent for companies
with grossly underfunded pension plans to lobby the PBGC to allow them
to modify their contribution responsibilities.Which could lead to contributi
ons not being made on schedule and Enron type accounting to leave pension
ers with nothing.If they allow U to modify its 3 billion liability what are they
going to tell general motors about their 31 billion dollar liability?

[/FONT][/P]
----------------
[/blockquote]
Setting precedents is the name of the game nowadays for corporate management. US first and now UAL. In the blink of an eye, the shot of a missile, the loss of a penny, the airline UM can go to a judge, or threaten so, to invalidate your contract.
So what good is union protection if it all can be yanked out from under you?(as it already has been this summer and fall)
 

delldude

Veteran
Oct 29, 2002
28,208
5,878
Downrange
www.youtube.com
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/27/2002 12:32:01 AM chipmunn wrote:
[P] [BR] 6. Long Term Disability Insurance – As with Life Insurance, LTD would stop. The only protected employee groups would be the pilots. Whose benefit would last for an additional 12-months due to VEBA. My understanding regarding the FAS is that the money is ear marked for this purpose but is not protected from Creditors.[BR][BR] Chip[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P] [STRONG][EM]i am so amused......i'm laughing right now.....we get royally screwed and you glorified skycaps get over...sure theres no "class envy"as a320 put it...wonder why he'd say something like that now,eh? [BR]hey A320-reet reet reet![/EM][/STRONG][/P]
 

delldude

Veteran
Oct 29, 2002
28,208
5,878
Downrange
www.youtube.com
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/27/2002 12:32:01 AM chipmunn wrote:
[P]Nobody likes the turmoil airline employees have endured since September 11, but during the ratification process I believe it’s important for all of us to non-emotionally view what’s at stake if the TA’s are not ratified and US Airways ceases to exist as an on-going business entity. [BR][BR]US Airways and the other mature carriers are struggling with plans to combat their number one threat: low cost competitors. In the case of United and US Airways, these two airlines have sought court protection, with both airlines teetering on converting their formal reorganizations into a liquidation proceeding. US Airways is much further along in its restructuring with an end in site, but the Arlington-based airline is also closer to a Chapter 7 liquidation unless three objectives are obtained: ratification of remaining union TA’s, reaching an acceptable pension restoration funding solution with the PBGC; both of which are expected to qualify the company for further DIP/ATSB backed financing and an equity investment. [BR][BR]We have discussed why ratification of the TA’s are important for those who may be furloughed in the future. Ratified agreements would provide those who may be laid off in the future severance pay, medical/dental benefits, COBRA, continued retirement funding, travel privileges, recall rights, and if desired, “jet for job†opportunities. But, if a TA is rejected by the rank-and-file, none of these benefits would be available. In addition, for those who remain they would have continued pay and benefits as an option while they pursue other employment alternatives, if required. [BR][BR]However, if the TA’s are rejected employees may see their last pay check this week and immediately lose their medical insurance for themselves and their family members. [STRONG]cobra act is law..[/STRONG][BR][BR]If US Airways is forced into a enterprise ending liquidation as early as January 2003 by any union rejecting a TA, here’s my understanding of what would occur: [BR][BR]1. Active Employee Pay – Would immediately cease with no payment made for worked already performed.[STRONG]there would be people needed for boxing up all the company parts and aircraft not serviceable.[/STRONG][BR][BR]2. Furlough Pay - Would cease immediately, no further payments would be made, and there would be no income for these displaced employees.[STRONG]i'd say 10-4 here good buddy.[/STRONG][BR][BR]3. Medical – There would be no COBRA coverage or ability to buy medical insurance through the company, thus some families could be without coverage whatsoever.[BR] [STRONG]funny,i thought it was a law?[/STRONG][BR][BR]4. Term Pass – This benefit would be eliminated. Commuters would be stranded, there would be no free travel for job searches, and no free leisure travel. To some of our employees, the loss of this perk whether active or employed would be significant. [STRONG]wtf-no business no non rev-cut me a friggin break chippie.[/STRONG][BR]5. Life Insurance - Once the premium payment ends, the coverage stops. Employees would be able to convert to more expensive personal policies.[STRONG]so be it.[/STRONG][BR][BR]6. Long Term Disability Insurance – As with Life Insurance, LTD would stop. The only protected employee groups would be the pilots. Whose benefit would last for an additional 12-months due to VEBA. My understanding regarding the FAS is that the money is ear marked for this purpose but is not protected from Creditors.[STRONG]so be it-it is done.[/STRONG][BR]7. Flexible Spending Account - These moneys are not held in trust; therefore, money held in these accounts could become general assets and once again employees could lose this money.[STRONG]so be it-it is done.[/STRONG][BR][BR]8. Salary Continuance (OJI) - These additional payments would cease, but the statutory benefit should continue.[STRONG]oh my god![/STRONG][BR][BR]9. Defined Contribution Retirement Plans - As long as the Company has made the employee and company contributions the moneys should be protected in the Fidelity Trust. However, if some of the contributions have not been made then EE's will become creditors and employees possibly losing some of this money as well.[STRONG]vested until date company ceases to exist. [/STRONG]. Defined Benefit Retirement Plans – The PBGC will take over the plans and determine the best course of action. The Non-Qualified Plans, SEDC, and ESOP, which are very complicated, but these monies could be lost as well. [STRONG]so,?[/STRONG][BR][BR]Obviously, this whole situation is unpleasant and is down right bad, but US Airways employees have their backs against the wall. Either US Airways obtains ratified labor accords and finds an acceptable retirement plan restoration solution or the airline dies, which would be bad for active, future furloughees, and furloughed employees alike. [STRONG]like i said,bohica-bend over,here it comes again![/STRONG][BR][BR]Chip[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,070
270
Hmmmmm ! Ive heard this speech before a few times. It looses its punch after the first time!
 

mlt

Senior
Dec 2, 2002
291
0
www.usaviation.com
Chip,[BR]Most LTD payments should be picked up by the PBGC. The disability would be reviewed to determine if the employee deliberately filed a claim prior to the company's closure in an attempt to continue receiving cash. If an honest disability, the claim should continue to be paid by the PBGC.
 

oldiebutgoody

Veteran
Aug 23, 2002
2,627
945
www.usaviation.com
Delldude,
Chip is right about COBRA. No company, no COBRA. There is another law, HIPAA (look it up) which MAY help you to get coverage somewhere else, but NO GUARANTEES. All COBRA does is allow you to stay in your old company's medical plan for a specified period, to allow you to get coverage elsewhere. If the company has no plan (as in the case of going belly-up), then NO COBRA!
 

cavalier

Veteran
Aug 28, 2002
2,409
1
www.usaviation.com
Chip wrote, among too many other things:

3. Medical – There would be no COBRA coverage or ability to buy medical insurance through the company, thus some families could be without coverage whatsoever.
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You are wrong old boy. I have been dealing with long term and serious family health issues for years and you are absolutely dead wrong.

Indeed U is in a very very bleak position, but Chip, unless you can make believers out of doubting people all your writing is for naught.

YES voters believe there is a future and NO voters don't.

GOD himself walked this earth and people don't believe it, GOD himself could not convince people of the truth. Chip, if you convince people to believe you with all kinds of threats including some false information, well then you are more than just a pilot.
 

cavalier

Veteran
Aug 28, 2002
2,409
1
www.usaviation.com
Chip you are incorrect about being paid for work already preformed. All employees will get that eventually, can take up to 2 years to get it but they will eventually get money for service rendered so to speak.
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Actually, a friend of mine who worked at Braniff worked overtime for a few weeks with promises of pay in the next week, then next week again, it never happened. He never received a dime. Long time since May 12, 1982. Too many parties higher up on the "I Get Mine First" ladder. So what you say may be true, but in this case, Chip is correct.