Who wants a merger with US?

[Bob Owens]

I am not in the mood of trusting ANYONE these days...NO ONE! Not even my union leadership who I never had a chance to vote on.

My problem is my union believing any promises by another airline...If you think we are all going to be singing COOMBAYAH, you are sadly mistaken.
I think, as a union member, I have a right to see what PARKER is promising.
My 50% outsourcing is the number posted by LCC employees here with respect to their CBA.

I merely want to see WHAT's on the table.
I also want to know what the unions will do besides protest with some catchphrase signs if and when the Parker Promise is reneged.

I am even willing to vote the TWU OUT if this were an acceptable deal.


Also, since I respect your talent for factual information and data.....I would like your opinion on another touchy issue.
My fellow ex-TWA coworkers are practically doing the Irish Jig believing that the IAM will restore their coccupational time...WHAT SAY YOU?

I see you are still obsessed with the TWA thing, get over it already. USAIR has around 3500 M&R. EX TWA are less than 1500 of AA and shrinking. IMO the IAM has nothing to gain by promising to give them all their seniority, they would get the TWA vote anyway but might even drive away some of the ex-EAL votes and most of the NAAtive votes if they promised to reverse Kasher. Sito Pantoya is the spokesman for the IAM and he was one of the Representatives back during the TWA Integration but I doubt he would risk 11000 more dues payers to simply get back at us. I could see them simplifying the seniority by doing away with the 4-10-01 and going with 25% across the board, which should have been done anyway. This would eventually allow ex-TWA to move throughout the system and put more pressure on the company in high cost areas like NY and LAX.

The negotiating committee did not meet with USAIR, we were briefed about it. From what we were told Parker promised fewer job cuts and bringing wages of the combined carrier, which are currently bottom and next to bottom, more in line with the rest of the industry, like his letter said. Do I trust him? Of course not, but why should we remain loyal to Horton? We have nothing to lose by throwing this into the mix. Dont take any of it too seroiusly and keep focused on what we need to get, look at whats going on at other carriers, where their pay and benefits are and do noit get duped into voting for anything less.

I would expect that if Parker took over he would employ the same strategy that has workrd so well for AA in using jobs as leverage to secure lower wages. Its a win win for the company, they get to use a cost saving structure as leverage to gain concessions on wages. To date the company has not argued that by the time the passenger sits in that seat that it costs more to maintain it in house than it would if they outsourced it.

My main concern is that the circus like enviornment will get everyone nervous and cause them to make a mistake.

Here is one scenario. Lets say the USAIR thing starts to gain traction, but we are told that the creditors wont OK the deal unless the company has signed union agreements with the current management in place. We are told that since US is taking over the 2018 term does not matter, that we need to keep the Successorship language in place and if the contract is abrogated we no longer have that protection and the IAM could Staple us. So we vote yes and the deal falls through because either one of the creditors backs out or the SEC decides that 3 airlines controllimng 70% of the market is not acceptable. We are stuck wil the deal till 2018.

Another scenario is that the deal goes through and the IAM agrees to our deal as the successor deal and we are stuck with it till 2018. This forces (allows) UAL, Delta and other carriers back into BK in order to try and compete with what is now the largest carrier in the country.

Regardless of what else is happening we have to stay focused on our objective of coming out of this with something thats acceptable, something that brings us back in line with the industry or shutting it down so other carriers can grow and hire us.

 

[700UW]

The SEC doesnt have a say in a merger, that would be the DOJ.

And McKascill-Bond has to be followed, so the IAM wouldnt staple. The four mergers I have been involved with have always been dovetail.

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ------ Now that would be sweet justice!------ But let's get real here! Even if they would, think about it. There arn't enough of them left to make a differance anyway! ------Or is it you just have a thing about exTWAers?------ Yes Bob, I'm interested in your take on that also!!!

MCI, don't always assume it's me or a native AAer who has a "thing" about seniority.
The breakroom is abuzz with the prospect of native TWAers gettuing their time back.....I did not start that discussion, the TWA guys did...They resurrected the seniority issue all over again.. So I suggest you and Bob Owens give a shout out to them regarding it.

And yes, I was asking Bob Owens for his take on the LEGITIMACY of it...not his opinion.

 

[Hopeful]

No, Bob I am not obessed with the seniority issue anymore. I simply asked for your factual response, not your opinion on my "feelings" on the issue.
The native TWAers resurrected this debate, not me, not any other native AAer mechanic.
So before you accuse me, feel free to mention the obsession issue to them.

Now, as for this whole merger thing, my point is I see nothing but another cluster #### with an integration.
And if you or anyone feels that we should follow the union pied pipers on any path as long as we don't bend over for AA, I will tell you that we eventually will be bending over for LCC as well.

The point is that the airline industry is done as far a good field to be employed in.
Let me remind everyone that United did not secure such an awesome contract their first time out of bankruptcy.
I do not believe or trust ANYONE.

I cannot believe that LCC will save all the jobs they are promising.
We would merge with a carrier that is a tad below us in terms of wages....Do you really believe we will see a big payday?

You said it yourself..."Synergies means headcount reductions.."

Since we will be losing even more, all I have left is seniority, so therfore I am not willing to give up the last "benefit" of belonging to a union.

The unions' main concern is saving jobs...everything else is secondary.

 

[Bob Owens]

The SEC doesnt have a say in a merger, that would be the DOJ.

And McKascill-Bond has to be followed, so the IAM wouldnt staple. The four mergers I have been involved with have always been dovetail.

I stand corrected, Thanks.

 

[Bob Owens]

No, Bob I am not obessed with the seniority issue anymore. I simply asked for your factual response, not your opinion on my "feelings" on the issue.
The native TWAers resurrected this debate, not me, not any other native AAer mechanic.
So before you accuse me, feel free to mention the obsession issue to them.

Now, as for this whole merger thing, my point is I see nothing but another cluster #### with an integration.
And if you or anyone feels that we should follow the union pied pipers on any path as long as we don't bend over for AA, I will tell you that we eventually will be bending over for LCC as well.

The point is that the airline industry is done as far a good field to be employed in.
Let me remind everyone that United did not secure such an awesome contract their first time out of bankruptcy.
I do not believe or trust ANYONE.

I cannot believe that LCC will save all the jobs they are promising.
We would merge with a carrier that is a tad below us in terms of wages....Do you really believe we will see a big payday?

You said it yourself..."Synergies means headcount reductions.."

Since we will be losing even more, all I have left is seniority, so therfore I am not willing to give up the last "benefit" of belonging to a union.

The unions' main concern is saving jobs...everything else is secondary.

The "Irish jig" comment , and your long history with this subject reveal your feelings. More than likely the guys who are bringing it up do so just to torment guys who are still hung up on it.

If the IAM were to give TWA guys their time then others should look for their time as well. I'd be looking for my 6-20-1980 time, when I became an IBT represented mechanic at Capitol.

I suppose its possible that the IAM could say they only recognize Company Time, If so they probably would have little chance of winning the election.

You may be willing to bend over, I'm not, not for Horton, not for Parker, read my posts again, I said that USAIR is no White Knight.

USAIRs wages will be higher than ours in less than three months when their automatic 3% increase kicks in, add in the holidays, vacation and sick time and they are comfortably ahead of us. On the Holidays alone we lost 100 hours of pay, or currently around $3300 a year, So even without the raise they actually currently earn more than we do because the cut in Holiday pay alone is the equivelent of a $1.57/hr cut in pay. I'm not saying its an acceptable deal, only its better than what AA is offering, so why not see where they are willing to go? Why confine ourselves with only dealing with Horton when its clear he does not want to negotiate, only dictate? If AA were to dissapear or become US with the AA logo then the average wage for the industry just went up which does not hurt our bargaining position, it helps it, especially if we end up in a PEB.

As far as headcount I believe I've made it clear that in BK its nuts to try and hold on to language that nobody else has at the cost of driving down compensation to new lows. The company has three points where they meet the standards for abrogation;
1. The DB pension
2. The Retiree Medical
3. Language keeping the volume of OH in house.
On number three it has never been proven that its a liability, however the truth doesnt matter and its a huge number that provides leverage in favor of abrogation and the judge will abrogate the whole contract as long as its there. I say give them those three things and demand comparable compensation and benefits and watch them scramble to make a case for abrogation. They wont have one, they would have to argue that they need labor to subsidize their mismanagement. Their plan is to have "the ability" to outsource anything they want but its the threat they really want, not actually doing it. Sure some will go out but not as much as they are asking for, Granted thats my opinion and not the majority or Internationals view but eventually it will come to a vote. Tulsa is still looking to strike a deal that will keep as many jobs in house as possible in house, same with Title II, the line has taken the position "we'll give you what your competitors have (no DB, no Retiree Medical but we get all our funds, and the ability to outsource what competitors outsource) but you have to give us what they give our peers". The company doesnt want that, they want to be able to outsouce as much as anyone else and pay us much, much less.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -------- Hopeful, the seniority issue at AA, in my view, has been settled. It is what it is. But it's only natural that exTWAers would hope that there might be a way to restore, what they feel, has been taken from them. But----- at this point in time, that's all that it is, "a hope", nothing more.----- And if it comes down to it, that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself. More of the failures, and out and out lies from AA management, and their pet Union the TWU, or take a chance with US and the IAM. And yes, "possibly" a restored exTWA workforce! -----But remember, AA and US are a long way from even the preliminary steps in becoming one.------ It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out!

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Maybe someone from USAir can correct me if im wrong but after the term sheet gets implemented US will have better vacation more holidays more IOD time and better sick time. Ill take USAir over AA right about now

 

[Bob Owens]

Maybe someone from USAir can correct me if im wrong but after the term sheet gets implemented US will have better vacation more holidays more IOD time and better sick time. Ill take USAir over AA right about now

usair already has better vacation, more holidays, iod and sick time. I believe they also still have doubletime and other workrules that are better than we currently have and much much better than what the company is proposing.

put it this way, Delta mechanics would have more rights than you would under the terms AA has put across. Its clear that the company wants to abrogate the deal. Their demands keep increasing, one of the latest appears to be that license premiums would no longer be compounded in ot or be part of your pensionable earnings as far as the 401k match.

 

[Hopeful]

More of the failures, and out and out lies from AA management, and their pet Union the TWU,

This part is interesting....Should we not be ALSO worried about LCC lies JUST to get union support for a merger? Do I need to remind you how AA/TWA played out?

This is my problem......Big problem.....

A bigger issue for me is that if this turns into an auction,,,Can we have Delta taking a piece, USair taking a piece, and UA taking a piece?....With minimum or no employees.

 

[Vortilon]

usair already has better vacation, more holidays, iod and sick time. I believe they also still have doubletime and other workrules that are better than we currently have and much much better than what the company is proposing.

put it this way, Delta mechanics would have more rights than you would under the terms AA has put across. Its clear that the company wants to abrogate the deal. Their demands keep increasing, one of the latest appears to be that license premiums would no longer be compounded in ot or be part of your pensionable earnings as far as the 401k match.

Not sure on their vacation Bob, do US Airways AMTs get 6 weeks vacation? I have seen different numbers on that.

 

[Slopoke]

The SEC doesnt have a say in a merger, that would be the DOJ.

And McKascill-Bond has to be followed, so the IAM wouldnt staple. The four mergers I have been involved with have always been dovetail.

The TWA senority issue led to the Bond- McCaskill provision and now it could help AA employees in the event of a merger. How ironic.

 

[Dilligas]

Not sure on their vacation Bob, do US Airways AMTs get 6 weeks vacation? I have seen different numbers on that.

I'm not Bob, but I do know the answer to your question.

Prior to the BK I & BK II concessions, the maximum was 7 weeks Vacation (after 30 yrs).

The maximum was reduced to 4 weeks (ouch) during the BK process.

Effective 2012, the max is now 5 weeks.

Contract negotiations are currently ongoing for IAM M&R workgroup, IAM Fleet Service, flight attendants (recently rejected a TA) and pilots.

 

[robbedagain]

i wonder if P would be willing to sweeten the pot (if you will) for the contracts jus to pass in exchange for the support of a merger or take over of AA?

 

[Hopeful]

The "Irish jig" comment , and your long history with this subject reveal your feelings. More than likely the guys who are bringing it up do so just to torment guys who are still hung up on it.

Wow, you got alot out of me using the term "Irish Jig." I used it simply because of it's lively, upbeat nature. Nothing more.
If I had used Jewish Hora or Italian Tarantela or Mexican Hat Dance, would you have deduced any other revelations about my opinions?

If the IAM were to give TWA guys their time then others should look for their time as well. I'd be looking for my 6-20-1980 time, when I became an IBT represented mechanic at Capitol.

I am only referring to the AA/TWA Kasher ruling. not where each mechanic begin his career.

I suppose its possible that the IAM could say they only recognize Company Time, If so they probably would have little chance of winning the election.

Ah, deviating from the occupational seniority when desired.

You may be willing to bend over, I'm not, not for Horton, not for Parker, read my posts again, I said that USAIR is no White Knight.

No, I am not willing to bend over for anyone. But I do know what happens when unions believe promises out of fear and desparation.
You do remember the TWU folding like a cheap leisure suit when they said they were on the steps of the BK court? You know, the one with no steps?

USAIRs wages will be higher than ours in less than three months when their automatic 3% increase kicks in, add in the holidays, vacation and sick time and they are comfortably ahead of us. On the Holidays alone we lost 100 hours of pay, or currently around $3300 a year, So even without the raise they actually currently earn more than we do because the cut in Holiday pay alone is the equivelent of a $1.57/hr cut in pay. I'm not saying its an acceptable deal, only its better than what AA is offering, so why not see where they are willing to go? Why confine ourselves with only dealing with Horton when its clear he does not want to negotiate, only dictate? If AA were to dissapear or become US with the AA logo then the average wage for the industry just went up which does not hurt our bargaining position, it helps it, especially if we end up in a PEB.

True, but I want to see the promises. Is he keeping OH? Which jobs did he promise to save?

As far as headcount I believe I've made it clear that in BK its nuts to try and hold on to language that nobody else has at the cost of driving down compensation to new lows. The company has three points where they meet the standards for abrogation;
1. The DB pension
2. The Retiree Medical
3. Language keeping the volume of OH in house.
On number three it has never been proven that its a liability, however the truth doesnt matter and its a huge number that provides leverage in favor of abrogation and the judge will abrogate the whole contract as long as its there. I say give them those three things and demand comparable compensation and benefits and watch them scramble to make a case for abrogation. They wont have one, they would have to argue that they need labor to subsidize their mismanagement. Their plan is to have "the ability" to outsource anything they want but its the threat they really want, not actually doing it. Sure some will go out but not as much as they are asking for, Granted thats my opinion and not the majority or Internationals view but eventually it will come to a vote. Tulsa is still looking to strike a deal that will keep as many jobs in house as possible in house, same with Title II, the line has taken the position "we'll give you what your competitors have (no DB, no Retiree Medical but we get all our funds, and the ability to outsource what competitors outsource) but you have to give us what they give our peers". The company doesnt want that, they want to be able to outsouce as much as anyone else and pay us much, much less.

My point exactly. AA wants what the competitors have labor wise. So we should believe LCC will buck the trend on outsourcing? Retiree Medical? DB Pensions?