Why should West agree to a fence with East

[USA320Pilot]

8 Reasons Why the AWA Pilots Should Agree To A Fence

1. Without a fence MEC Representatives have indicated they lead the effort to decertify ALPA, which could become very problematic for the AWA pilots.

2. The majority of the East pilots have indicated they will live under LOA 93 for as long as possible, which easily could be 7 or 8 years by simply not agreeing to a joint contract, if a suitable solution is not obtained to the Nicolau Award. This prevents the AWA pilots from getting contract improvements during JNC talks

3. LOA 93 may encourage the company to “whip sawâ€￾ the AWA pilots.

4. The US Airways pilots would remain in JNC talks, just never agree to a new deal. Thus, the AWA pilots will not get a new contract unless they try to break off JNC talks and if possible, enter into Section VI negotiations.

5. If the AWA pilots do go into Section VI negotiations and the proceeding goes to a strike, most US Airways pilots I have talked to indicate they would continue to fly.

6. If ALPA is decertified on the US Airways property then ALPA in not the bargaining agent and this issued would need to be resolved before the East/West pilots and company could negotiate a new pilot agreement.

7. During the period LOA 93 remains in place most of the attrition, upgrades, widebody growth, and EMB-190 flying will occur in the East. This will create AWA pilot stagnation and US Airways pilot promotions.

8. The ugly battle that would evolve between the two pilot groups could become toxic and could kill the company.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[AAA#6]

8 Reasons Why the AWA Pilots Should Agree To A Fence

1. Without a fence MEC Representatives have indicated they lead the effort to decertify ALPA, which could become very problematic for the AWA pilots.

2. The majority of the East pilots have indicated they will live under LOA 93 for as long as possible, which easily could be 7 or 8 years by simply not agreeing to a joint contract, if a suitable solution is not obtained to the Nicolau Award. This prevents the AWA pilots from getting contract improvements during JNC talks

3. LOA 93 may encourage the company to “whip sawâ€￾ the AWA pilots.

4. The US Airways pilots would remain in JNC talks, just never agree to a new deal. Thus, the AWA pilots will not get a new contract unless they try to break off JNC talks and if possible, enter into Section VI negotiations.

5. If the AWA pilots do go into Section VI negotiations and the proceeding goes to a strike, most US Airways pilots I have talked to indicate they would continue to fly.

6. If ALPA is decertified on the US Airways property then ALPA in not the bargaining agent and this issued would need to be resolved before the East/West pilots and company could negotiate a new pilot agreement.

7. During the period LOA 93 remains in place most of the attrition, upgrades, widebody growth, and EMB-190 flying will occur in the East. This will create AWA pilot stagnation and US Airways pilot promotions.

8. The ugly battle that would evolve between the two pilot groups could become toxic and could kill the company.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

So you are saying that East pilots would perform scab flying if West struck the operation?

East only gets 66 percent of the EMB flying.

Again at the average age of 52, that is a lot of guys that want to go 7 years with FAR rest, no rigs, no guarantees, no real form of pay. 7 years is a long time........

If the company is to die...then it dies. I have no problem moving on into another career path. The USAirways name is so trashed from the past and now the present that nobody would miss it.

 

[EastUS]

East Guys, We still need a good reason as to why you think the West should agree to a fence, or anything. None of the entitlement, age, LOS, burn the place down, etc, stuff either. What would the West get in return. You don't get something for nothing.

A very solid and most reasonable question sir. As at least one Eastie guy..I'm fully open for any and ALL suggestions so this can be fairly done for both sides. This's just the first thought that immediately comes to me: Perhaps we could seek to slot aircraft growth your way so that you gents aren't hosed by the fences? I honestly don't have any immediate response that's well thought out. I've been pretty much limited recently to "How do we keep this from happening?".

A positive approach must be possible if we use our collective heads. There's gotta' be room for give and take in any reasonable process. The West would necessarily have to obtain some actual benefits to want to sign on for Fences. What might seem reasonable to you gents?

 

[AAA#6]

East Guys, We still need a good reason as to why you think the West should agree to a fence, or anything. None of the entitlement, age, LOS, burn the place down, etc, stuff either. What would the West get in return. You don't get something for nothing.

This is a good question. West already passed a resolution regarding no side letters outside the Nicolau decision and award.

 

[EastUS]

This is a good question. West already passed a resolution regarding no side letters outside the Nicolau decision and award.

Who gives a Freak what's "already passed"? The Titanic's Captain was all for a record setting/high speed crossing...and failed to change his mind when the presence of icebergs was noted. After all..He'd "already passed" his orders.

Do you honestly see a snowball's chance in hell of this situation getting any better for either West or East as things stand?

Do you have even the tiniest fantasy remaining that some miracle, nay= celestial event will occur that, through an instant and amazing Eastie Epiphany, will produce a decent, or even ANY joint contract as things are?

 

[AAA#6]

Who gives a Freak what's "already passed"? The Titanic's Captain was all for a record setting/high speed crossing...and failed to change his mind when the presence of icebergs was noted. After all..He'd "already passed" his orders.

Do you honestly see a snowball's chance in hell of this situation getting any better for either West or East as things stand?

Not really.

 

[EastUS]

Not really.

Sigh me neither. It seems evident that we..by which I mean both "We's" east and west, must figure out something.

 

[AAA#6]

Sigh me neither. It seems evident that we..by which I mean both "We's" east and west, must figure out something.

Unfortunately, at least on this web board, everyone is hunkered pretty well in their foxholes. :blink:

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

You and the others that jumped on the "Screw Dave" campaign deserve whatever anguish comes your way.

You and the rest of your groupees that orchestrated this train wreck are going to have to suck it up. Do whatever you want because this will not be resolved through threats. The time for negotiation has come and gone long ago and now is the time to reap what you sow.

Read the ALPA headlines lately? Age 60 will be changing soon anyway so all that "windfall" attrition everyone is in an uproar over just dissapeard.

Cheers!

CC

8 Reasons Why the AWA Pilots Should Agree To A Fence

1. Without a fence MEC Representatives have indicated they lead the effort to decertify ALPA, which could become very problematic for the AWA pilots.

2. The majority of the East pilots have indicated they will live under LOA 93 for as long as possible, which easily could be 7 or 8 years by simply not agreeing to a joint contract, if a suitable solution is not obtained to the Nicolau Award. This prevents the AWA pilots from getting contract improvements during JNC talks

3. LOA 93 may encourage the company to “whip sawâ€￾ the AWA pilots.

4. The US Airways pilots would remain in JNC talks, just never agree to a new deal. Thus, the AWA pilots will not get a new contract unless they try to break off JNC talks and if possible, enter into Section VI negotiations.

5. If the AWA pilots do go into Section VI negotiations and the proceeding goes to a strike, most US Airways pilots I have talked to indicate they would continue to fly.

6. If ALPA is decertified on the US Airways property then ALPA in not the bargaining agent and this issued would need to be resolved before the East/West pilots and company could negotiate a new pilot agreement.

7. During the period LOA 93 remains in place most of the attrition, upgrades, widebody growth, and EMB-190 flying will occur in the East. This will create AWA pilot stagnation and US Airways pilot promotions.

8. The ugly battle that would evolve between the two pilot groups could become toxic and could kill the company.

Regards,

USA320Pilot[/font]

 

[AWA320]

A very solid and most reasonable question sir. As at least one Eastie guy..I'm fully open for any and ALL suggestions so this can be fairly done for both sides. This's just the first thought that immediately comes to me: Perhaps we could seek to slot aircraft growth your way so that you gents aren't hosed by the fences? I honestly don't have any immediate response that's well thought out. I've been pretty much limited recently to "How do we keep this from happening?".

A positive approach must be possible if we use our collective heads. There's gotta' be room for give and take in any reasonable process. The West would necessarily have to obtain some actual benefits to want to sign on for Fences. What might seem reasonable to you gents?

Good glad to hear you are open to suggestions so here's one. Accept the award as is and move on!! There will be no side deals now as you have NOTHING to deal with! This horsecrap of either you make a deal or else is just that Horsecrap!!! You had you chance to deal and you let that numbnutz Eric Rowe speak for you. Now there is where you problem lies go fix that...

Change unions, live under a bankruptcy contract, make threats till the cows come home but we will not deal on anything having to do with this award PERIOD...

 

[CaptainZitface]

8 Reasons Why the AWA Pilots Should Agree To A Fence

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Ah, the infamous "I'm going to make your life miserable because I'm miserable" tactic. Dougweiser and Scooter Kirby thank you for doing their work for them. We'll continue to be the lowest paid pilots with the highest productivity, assuring multi-million dollar bonuses for management

Why don't you put the blame towards the real culprits: Your MEC, LECs, Merger Committee and attorneys. Doogie said "no DOH, no fences", ALPA merger policy said "no DOH", mediator said "no DOH", arbitrator said "no DOH" (twice!). Through 18 months of due process, your elected leaders didn't budge on their DOH and fences. Jack "General Custer" Stephan didn't acknowledge the strong possibility of a ratioed list until his hotline message in February.

If your contractor doesn't put a roof on your house because "it never rains here" are you going to blame your neighbor for you getting soaked during a storm because he was smart enough to put a roof on his house?

If I were an Eastie, I'd spend a little bit less time on these boards and a little more time drafting recall resolutions.

 

[b737fo]

8 Reasons Why the AWA Pilots Should Agree To A Fence

1. Without a fence MEC Representatives have indicated they lead the effort to decertify ALPA, which could become very problematic for the AWA pilots.

2. The majority of the East pilots have indicated they will live under LOA 93 for as long as possible, which easily could be 7 or 8 years by simply not agreeing to a joint contract, if a suitable solution is not obtained to the Nicolau Award. This prevents the AWA pilots from getting contract improvements during JNC talks

3. LOA 93 may encourage the company to “whip sawâ€￾ the AWA pilots.

4. The US Airways pilots would remain in JNC talks, just never agree to a new deal. Thus, the AWA pilots will not get a new contract unless they try to break off JNC talks and if possible, enter into Section VI negotiations.

5. If the AWA pilots do go into Section VI negotiations and the proceeding goes to a strike, most US Airways pilots I have talked to indicate they would continue to fly.

6. If ALPA is decertified on the US Airways property then ALPA in not the bargaining agent and this issued would need to be resolved before the East/West pilots and company could negotiate a new pilot agreement.

7. During the period LOA 93 remains in place most of the attrition, upgrades, widebody growth, and EMB-190 flying will occur in the East. This will create AWA pilot stagnation and US Airways pilot promotions.

8. The ugly battle that would evolve between the two pilot groups could become toxic and could kill the company.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

1. The "agree with us or else watch out for your union" threats are not an effective way to start good faith negotiations.

2. The West is not that desperate for contract improvements. I am sure we would all like to see forward progress with our labor agreement but we are not suffering over here.

3. The labor costs based on the pay rates may actually be higher for the East using their LOA93 versus using the AWA rates at average LOS levels of the pilots.

4. You answered this one for me with the last sentence.

5. We would still be separate in this scenario and if the company tried to get the East guys to cover struck West flying then that is the labor dilemma that the East would have to answer to. Also that scenario is after Sec. VI talks, mediation, cooling off period, etc... There will be many years behind us with a pilot group that looks very different then today based on age.

6. It is still a binding arbitration ruling no matter who represents the East

7. Nothing would prevent the company from just treating the West as a separate division under the same operating certificate. That would allow them to place growth aircraft where they like. Also the attrition in this scenario for one of the 1800 West pilots would be the same attrition that he/she expected when hired at AWA prior to the merge.

8. Killing 40,000 jobs over a disagreement between just a fraction of the employees is a sad state of affairs with a lot of innocent victims.