ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week 5/22 to 5/29

[cleardirect]

No, it's about the West INSISTING on representation, but not wanting to pay for it or even provide any input.

No input required from the west. You guys got it all covered.

You have the majority of votes don’t need us to ratify a contract. Could not stop something we don’t like anyway.

You have a professional negotiator. Don’t need the west for that committee. USAPA will bring home a great big new contract very quickly in this good economy.

USAPA is going to convince Parker to throw out binding arbitration in favor of DOH.

USAPA is going to somehow come up with conditions and restriction that will protect the west from the devastation of stapling 80% of the west pilots below your furloughed pilots.

If furloughs come is USAPA going to represent us fairly or throw us under the bus using DOH for furloughs?

So you see. No input needed, you guys have it all under control. Represent us. I seriously doubt that USAPA will have the west’s best interest in mind. Only the east.

 

[Fly]

Click "report" on the suspect post and let the moderators know. They can check on the IP address and see if it's anyone who is banned or on a time out and shouldn't be posting.

What if they are in a crashpad? Doesn't seem fair to ban the entire crashpad over one bad crasher.

 

[Piedmont1984]

No input required from the west. You guys got it all covered.

You have the majority of votes don’t need us to ratify a contract. Could not stop something we don’t like anyway.

You have a professional negotiator. Don’t need the west for that committee. USAPA will bring home a great big new contract very quickly in this good economy.

USAPA is going to convince Parker to throw out binding arbitration in favor of DOH.

USAPA is going to somehow come up with conditions and restriction that will protect the west from the devastation of stapling 80% of the west pilots below your furloughed pilots.

If furloughs come is USAPA going to represent us fairly or throw us under the bus using DOH for furloughs?

So you see. No input needed, you guys have it all under control. Represent us. I seriously doubt that USAPA will have the west’s best interest in mind. Only the east.

Have you ever been furloughed? You know, it's not like going on vacation. Being furloughed is a hardship. Many of those furloughed still had more active duty time than the pilots out west who were placed above them by Nicolau.

And yes, if you engage and participate, you will affect the outcome. You will have a input into how the list is constructed.

If you abstain - then it's a foregone conclusion.

Seniority, without longevity, has no integrity.

 

[Flyz4food]

Have you ever been furloughed? You know, it's not like going on vacation. Being furloughed is a hardship. Many of those furloughed still had more active duty time than the pilots out west who were placed above them by Nicolau.

And yes, if you engage and participate, you will affect the outcome. You will have a input into how the list is constructed.

If you abstain - then it's a foregone conclusion.

Seniority, without longevity, has no integrity.

Are you saying that because you were furloughed and the west wasn't, we should be just to feel your pain?

 

[cleardirect]

The town hall meeting concept has been tried in PHX...we've all seen the result. Any point in repeating it? The membership form, dues check-off and an array of other pertinent information is available on the USAPA web site. I'm told by my reps that they stand ready to
meet with any West pilot who steps up to help out as base rep, contract liaison or any of the other well-advertised positions. Phone lines are now open. If everyone there chooses to ignore these overtures, I suggest waiting by the mailbox for an engraved invitation. The results will be the same.


So that’s it. One meeting for the west. It did not go well. The USAPA leaders run from the scary west pilots. You know union organizing is hard and bare knuckled. If Jimmie Hoffa had the determination of USAPA the truck drivers would be would be making less than dishwashers. If they are so afraid of a little controversy and a hard fight I fear for the contract negotiations. Management will eat your crew meal.

So you guys want me to join or at least pay dues. But I have to do all of the work. Dig around for a web site or phone number so I can hand over money to be stapled and not represented. Thanks! Union organizing requires just a little effort. The very least is to actually look the pilots in the face and ask him to join.




They represent the West in every meaningful way, to include disciplinary and grievance representation, and the extension of services to currently non-dues-paying pilots. If some provision of your contract was overlooked, perhaps it is because no one who has worked under it has volunteered for the Contract Liaison position. Again, your choice.


So again we are expected to do the work for you. USAPA promised that they would be ready to go day one. Should have read the contract. It was made quite clear from the very beginning. The west did not want to participate in your organization. USAPA came to PHX to talk to the new hires. The class has east and west pilots. The west new hires were told “we don’t know anything about your contract, you can leaveâ€￾ Equally representing the pilots of US Airways? I think not.



Except that there was no agreement.

Incorrect! The agreement was to abide by the arbitration. Both sides singed on the dotted line.

By steadfastly refusing to negotiate appropriate protections for the East pilots, the West aborted the process before it became legal and binding in a combined CBA.


What the east refuses to understand is there is a procedure to integration. Step 1 negotiation. Step 2 mediation. Step 3 arbitration. What the west refused to do was go back to step 1 after the award was announced. Where was the east negotiation during step 1? DOH! Where was the east willingness to negotiate even during arbitration when Nicalau explained clearly that you were not going to get DOH or LOS. So trying to somehow blame the west for not negotiating after the fact and out of order is disingenuous.


With the organization which demanded arbitration gone, it is an interesting footnote, but effectively moot.


Again incorrect! The Nicalau continues. ALPA is gone for now. But USAPA inherited all of ALPA’s obligations. That means the Nicalau award. Even your lawyer will tell you that it does not just go away. That is why you are trying to convince Parker to negotiate a new seniority list. Listen to Parkers last crew news from CLT. He says the Nicalau is still there.

 

[nostradamus]

USAPA negotiates with US Airways. Members vote. You are not a member you do not get to vote. Vote determines results of contract. It is that simple.

 

[luvn737s]

The majority of east pilots now belong to USAPA, I expect a couple hundred to be "non-members," but they will pay their dues, as you cannot maintain employment without doing so - doesn't matter if you're are east or west, the result is unemployment.



Don't join, your choice. Don't pay dues, your choice. I could care less..........

Suppose they don't pay dues. The union cannot fire anybody. Do you think they would try to sue the company to force them to fire someone? Who would the judge say must go first and what has past practice been with the previous union? How long do you think it will realistically take for the first (or all ) the pilots to be dismissed?

And suppose the airline does go into bankruptcy. I could see the closed shop provision as being quite persuasive in granting an 1113 motion to preserve the airline and hobble the "union" with one stone.

There are plenty of things to lose sleep over, but being one of over 2000 people to be fired en masse isn't one of them.

 

[700UW]

The company has to justify to the judge in order to remove the Union Shop Clause, it doesnt hamper the company to stay in business and Union Shop Clauses are legal under the RLA.

The laws have changed since Lorenzo used bankruptcy to eliminate the unions, it cant be done anymore.

 

[checksix]

Hello my friend, it's been a long time.

 

[cleardirect]

Have you ever been furloughed? You know, it's not like going on vacation. Being furloughed is a hardship. Many of those furloughed still had more active duty time than the pilots out west who were placed above them by Nicolau.

And yes, if you engage and participate, you will affect the outcome. You will have a input into how the list is constructed.

If you abstain - then it's a foregone conclusion.

Let’s explore that thought for a minute.

All 1800 west pilots join. As you say we decide to participate.

USAPA manages to negotiate a DOH list and small improvements for east maybe a cut for the west. The TA hits the desk for a vote. Any guesses how the east votes and how the west votes. So I go back to my original point.

The east has the majority. If we vote don’t vote, join don’t join. The tyranny of the majority will win out.

Until we have a joint contract Doug will have to use the separate lists and contracts to furlough. If Doug decided to come to USAPA to “work out a dealâ€￾ Would there be a vote on who goes? Would USAPA just make the deal on their own without pilot input?

Even if 1800 west pilots joined to have a vote. We would want to use the Nicalau list as agreed to and accepted by the company and the east. USAPA will want to impose a contrived DOH list to furlough.

Care to take a stab at the voting results? So how would 1800 west pilots handing over a couple million dollars to help fund our destruction going to change the outcome of anything?

You guys have said it and proved it. You have a majority you get what you want. You want DOH. The west chooses not to pay for that career destruction.

You are correct with us or without us any vote dealing with DOH is a foregone conclusion. The west has chosen to fight the tyranny of the majority with everything that we have.

 

[luvn737s]

The company has to justify to the judge in order to remove the Union Shop Clause, it doesnt hamper the company to stay in business and Union Shop Clauses are legal under the RLA.

The laws have changed since Lorenzo used bankruptcy to eliminate the unions, it cant be done anymore.

If the company would be facing a crippling number of dismissals, a bankruptcy judge would likely find it in the best interests of the creditors to relieve the company of that burden through the granting of an 1113 motion. I don't think the interests of the union rank nearly as high.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Na. As soon as the termination letters go out, you'll see MASSIVE numbers (if not all) of folks paying up. Happens every time!

 

[checksix]

Na. As soon as the termination letters go out, you'll see MASSIVE numbers (if not all) of folks paying up. Happens every time!

That's exactly what will happen, as soon as this pilot group witnesses 10 fellow pilots dismissed, the remaining 1200 or so macho, call my bluff, lawsuit this/lawsuit that aviators will become dues current within 24 hours. No one is going to be willing to lose their career over 2% union dues.

This is a non-issue.

 

[EastUS]

If the company would be facing a crippling number of dismissals, ....

That would depend on what management's notions are at the given time. The west folks have long been fond of taunting with "You can live on LOA93 forever!", while dissmissing the contained minimum fleet specifics...none of which exists out west. I think this scenario to be highly unlikely in the immediate future but; let's consider the thought that there may be a desire for aircraft reductions in the not-too-distant future. What "side" would most probably see them? Recall that "the east" list once contained over 6,000 pilots, and a whole lot more aircraft. We've seen events occur that may well seem imposible to you..at least at present. If parking/disposing of aircraft becomes involved....?? Just a thought as to the future being very uncertain on all levels. In any case..have no fantasies that you're any beloved, chosen ones from any perspective of management, and thusly, not a protected species. Dismissals, due to legitimate, legal considerations, instead of having to fret over who to furlough... might just look pretty darn tasty from the management side of the desk. Objectively consider Mr. Parker's postion = "Hmm..I've got massive labor strife between pilot factions..which side would most benefit me to reduce in numbers?" Hopefully, no such scenario will develop in any case.

Do whatever you think best. It's your business, and it's up to you to determine what you feel's the best path.

 

[checksix]

Suppose they don't pay dues. The union cannot fire anybody. Do you think they would try to sue the company to force them to fire someone? Who would the judge say must go first and what has past practice been with the previous union? How long do you think it will realistically take for the first (or all ) the pilots to be dismissed?

So you are telling me that you are willing to be discharged over your union dues? Think about that and then give us an honest answer, can you do that?

Second, there's no need for a judge to be involved, have you read the Hemenway letter to USAPA. If not, you really should; it would appear that the company will not fool around with dismissal, per federal law. They have made clear to USAPA how they will respond if necessary to non-dues payers.