ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week 5/22 to 5/29

[cleardirect]

"I may have missed something, but I don't see any begging, crying, etc. I have seen a great deal of effort aimed toward fair inclusion, apparently futile."


What exactly would that effort be? Someone coming to the crew room to discuss joining and handing out applications? NO! Someone putting information in my mail box at work? Nope! USAPA holding a town hall meeting in PHX to welcome us aboard? NOT YET! Sending me anything via US mail? HARDLY! So far the only effort made by USAPA is for your lawyer to send a threatening letter to AWAPPA about agency shop. My original point USAPA is only concerned about the dues not the west pilots


"The you/us characterization is a faulty premise. "

Why is that? Are we one big happy family now? There most certainly is an you/us split.

"If you mean that your only reason to join the BPR is to overturn the C&BL's merger language, then you likely will be outvoted every time. "

No one from the west was asked or allowed to be involved with that particular part of the C&BL. Interesting how you immediately went to that part of the discussion. Since that is the only reason for USAPA’s existence. To avoid binding arbitration. If you guys had accepted the result than come to us and said “let’s start a new CBA†I think most of us would have been on board.


"If, on the other hand, you are there to represent the pilots in your base on the myriad of other issues that are of importance to line pilots, then you might find that a little diplomacy and a reasonable argument might just win over a sufficient number of other base reps and the issue may resolve in your favor. "


In our favor. Didn’t you just say in your second paragraph that the you/us was faulty?

“then you might find that a little diplomacy and a reasonable argumentâ€

That’s funny right there. I don’t care who you are. That is what we have been saying for the last two years. Get off of DOH and negotiate reasonably. When the arbitrator tells you point blank that DOH is not going to work. A reasonable person or group would reconsider their position. But not the east. Stand by DOH. Don’t get DOH change the rules to avoid arbitration. Write a C&BL that magically implements DOH.

Speaking of other problems in our base. Is USAPA going to do a pairing review as required in our contract or blow that off again this month. They seemed to have missed that last month. Not really representing the west are they?


"The lawyers must love you guys. About every 5 minutes y'all come up with another sure-fire legal strategy that will end the wicked East tyranny. To date, I have not have not seen one that has any actual merit, but keep trying if you must."


I believe that it was the east pilots that fired the first legal shot. Filing the case in DC court. Besides Bradford is on video explaining that when he started USAPA in the back of a van on the way back from Herndon. They were told to expect lawsuits. IMO when you start out knowing that you are going to be sued you are probably not doing it correctly.


"Once you accept that there will be no St. Nic and no free ride, then maybe we can begin working together. "

Sorry, but until you accept the legal and binding agreement that your side has failed to follow. There will be no working together.

 

[checksix]

BTW, apparently the majority the East pilots who voted him in as MEC chairman way back then, didn't think he was a shill as you did, or he wouldn't have been elected.

Pilots don't vote for MEC Officers.

 

[CactusFlyr]

I may have missed something, but I don't see any begging, crying, etc. I have seen a great deal of effort aimed toward fair inclusion, apparently futile.



The you/us characterization is a faulty premise. If you mean that your only reason to join the BPR is to overturn the C&BL's merger language, then you likely will be outvoted every time. If, on the other hand, you are there to represent the pilots in your base on the myriad of other issues that are of importance to line pilots, then you might find that a little diplomacy and a reasonable argument might just win over a sufficient number of other base reps and the issue may resolve in your favor. You might also find issues where the East reps are split and PHX/LAS will have the deciding vote. Won't ever know without trying, however.



Everyone (former East and West) will eventually pay union dues or agency shop fees, or they will not be employed here. How and when the USAPA leadership chooses to enforce this is up to them, but it will happen. I have long felt my ALPA dues were being wasted and used in ways not in my best interest, but I paid them anyway. Like taxes, they are not optional.



The lawyers must love you guys. About every 5 minutes y'all come up with another sure-fire legal strategy that will end the wicked East tyranny. To date, I have not have not seen one that has any actual merit, but keep trying if you must.

I don't see USAPA as a panacea or a cure for the current economic climate, but it will be a substantial improvement over it's predecessor. Once you accept that there will be no St. Nic and no free ride, then maybe we can begin working together. Non-involvement by the West is of course your option, but a foolish one IMO.

You guys haven't actually done anything wrong yet (ie, attempt to circumvent the arbitration) o goes, no lawsuit yet.

 

[checksix]

No better or worse than ALPA. The same crap goes on there too and they have less clout on Capitol Hill. I see no advantage to independent unions. The most important thing a pilot group can have is effective leadership and that's severely lacking irrespective of which union is in power.

I appreciate your perspective, thanks.

 

[checksix]

For all of you USAPA supporters could you please clear something up for me. You are on here and your own web site begging, crying, demanding, threatening the west pilots to join your organization (it’s not a union) Why? Other than the dues money, that you will use to destroy our careers what do you need us for?

I don't care if you join or not - I think what pilots are surprised with, and what you are witnessing, is that the behavior being exhibited would appear to be very immature and, quite frankly, outright foolish. To protest by remaining silent will do you absolutely no good. There is no "crying, demanding, threatening," only surprise at the west pilots' behavior.

You're also confused with joining vs. union dues. Whether you are a member or not, you pay dues, dues germane to your representation. Again, you don't have to join but you must pay your representational costs.

All of you have mentioned it many times the east has the majority. You can outvote us at any time. Demonstrated by the representational vote. We have no reason to believe that it would go any other way. You have set up the C&BL to favor the east pilots. At the most the west could get 5 reps. The east could have 12. Outvoted each time. You set it up to have 70% of the reps even though you only have 60% of the pilots. You have told us that you don’t need us for anything. But we had better join in order to have a say in our future. What say will we have? Outvoted every time. Remember the east is so proud of having the majority.

Did your LAS Reps make the same argument? Did they refuse to join ALPA because they were the minority? Do you want a voice in your representation? I was a member of ALPA, today I am a member of USAPA and that would be regardless of the size of the base I reside in.

It has also been threatened many times that if we do not join that USAPA will have all of the non-members fired. Do you 100% participation on the east side? Has every one of your pilots signed up? If not why not. Don’t forget that USAPA can not selectively pick and choose who they go after. It is all or nothing. Only go after the west. Discrimination lawsuit. Seek to punish the west first. Discrimination.

You guys sure are full of threats aren't you? Lawsuit this, lawsuit that. Again, you are confused with member/non-member status. You pay dues germane to your representational costs, whether you are a member or not. All 5200 US Airways pilots are represented by USAPA, whether you like it or not.

You are not discharged by the company for not being a member of USAPA. The company will discharge you for non payment of dues.

The majority of east pilots now belong to USAPA, I expect a couple hundred to be "non-members," but they will pay their dues, as you cannot maintain employment without doing so - doesn't matter if you're are east or west, the result is unemployment.

So explain to me and the rest of the west. Other than the dues money why are you guys so hell bent on getting the west to sign up?

Don't join, your choice. Don't pay dues, your choice. I could care less..........

 

[checksix]

Wow, a lot of 1st post posters who are jumping right into it as if they are experienced posters here......

LOL, do you mean you need experience to express one's opinion? Or, does posting require experience?

 

[checksix]

No one from the west was asked or allowed to be involved with that particular part of the C&BL. Interesting how you immediately went to that part of the discussion. Since that is the only reason for USAPA’s existence. To avoid binding arbitration. If you guys had accepted the result than come to us and said “let’s start a new CBAâ€￾ I think most of us would have been on board.

If I recall, USAPA was given little credibility by the west or ALPA. Did anyone ask to participate? You know the answer. Oh well, someone should have gotten involved, there's no "do-overs."

I don’t care who you are. Is USAPA going to do a pairing review as required in our contract or blow that off again this month. They seemed to have missed that last month. Not really representing the west are they?

That would be up to you guys, do you want to participate in your representation? You want pairing reviews, I suggest you become a member and volunteer.

Sorry, but until you accept the legal and binding agreement that your side has failed to follow. There will be no working together.

Guess we won't be working together then.......oh well.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Wow, a lot of 1st post posters who are jumping right into it as if they are experienced posters here......

Amazing, isn't it? I think they are old posters using new handles. Oh well.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Can you say usapa shill???

I may have missed something, but I don't see any begging, crying, etc. I have seen a great deal of effort aimed toward fair inclusion, apparently futile.



The you/us characterization is a faulty premise. If you mean that your only reason to join the BPR is to overturn the C&BL's merger language, then you likely will be outvoted every time. If, on the other hand, you are there to represent the pilots in your base on the myriad of other issues that are of importance to line pilots, then you might find that a little diplomacy and a reasonable argument might just win over a sufficient number of other base reps and the issue may resolve in your favor. You might also find issues where the East reps are split and PHX/LAS will have the deciding vote. Won't ever know without trying, however.



Everyone (former East and West) will eventually pay union dues or agency shop fees, or they will not be employed here. How and when the USAPA leadership chooses to enforce this is up to them, but it will happen. I have long felt my ALPA dues were being wasted and used in ways not in my best interest, but I paid them anyway. Like taxes, they are not optional.



The lawyers must love you guys. About every 5 minutes y'all come up with another sure-fire legal strategy that will end the wicked East tyranny. To date, I have not have not seen one that has any actual merit, but keep trying if you must.

I don't see USAPA as a panacea or a cure for the current economic climate, but it will be a substantial improvement over it's predecessor. Once you accept that there will be no St. Nic and no free ride, then maybe we can begin working together. Non-involvement by the West is of course your option, but a foolish one IMO.

 

[cleardirect]

You're also confused with joining vs. union dues. Whether you are a member or not, you pay dues, dues germane to your representation. Again, you don't have to join but you must pay your representational costs.



You guys sure are full of threats aren't you? Lawsuit this, lawsuit that. Again, you are confused with member/non-member status. You pay dues germane to your representational costs, whether you are a member or not. All 5200 US Airways pilots are represented by USAPA, whether you like it or not.

You are not discharged by the company for not being a member of USAPA. The company will discharge you for non payment of dues.

The majority of east pilots now belong to USAPA, I expect a couple hundred to be "non-members," but they will pay their dues, as you cannot maintain employment without doing so - doesn't matter if you're are east or west, the result is unemployment.



Don't join, your choice. Don't pay dues, your choice. I could care less..........

Thanks for confirming my suspicion. It is about the west money not about representing the west pilots.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Thanks for confirming my suspicion. It is about the west money not about representing the west pilots.

No, it's about the West INSISTING on representation, but not wanting to pay for it or even provide any input.

 

[Flyz4food]

No, it's about the West INSISTING on representation, but not wanting to pay for it or even provide any input.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually, by seeking the position of and being elected as CBA, USAPA has the legal responsibility to represent every member of the craft and class on the property. That includes overseeing and enforcing the provisions of the West contract as long as it exists.

Jim

 

[EctopicBeat]

What exactly would that effort be? Someone coming to the crew room to discuss joining and handing out applications? NO! Someone putting information in my mail box at work? Nope! USAPA holding a town hall meeting in PHX to welcome us aboard? NOT YET! Sending me anything via US mail? HARDLY! So far the only effort made by USAPA is for your lawyer to send a threatening letter to AWAPPA about agency shop. My original point USAPA is only concerned about the dues not the west pilots

The town hall meeting concept has been tried in PHX...we've all seen the result. Any point in repeating it? The membership form, dues check-off and an array of other pertinent information is available on the USAPA web site. I'm told by my reps that they stand ready to
meet with any West pilot who steps up to help out as base rep, contract liaison or any of the other well-advertised positions. Phone lines are now open. If everyone there chooses to ignore these overtures, I suggest waiting by the mailbox for an engraved invitation. The results will be the same.

Why is that? Are we one big happy family now? There most certainly is an you/us split.

In our favor. Didn’t you just say in your second paragraph that the you/us was faulty?

Sorry if this was confusing; I thought the difference in context was clear, and I needed a pronoun. My point is not every vote or every issue will evolve along East/West lines. It's not preordained that "you can outvote us at any time", nor do I believe the East pilots seek this result. Bases will come and go (mostly go, if history holds), balances of power shift, and resolutions that have substance and merit can be agreed upon. You're right, as of now there is a you/us split, but it is not a premise that lends itself to effective representation. I'm hoping current and future pilot leadership can get past that way of thinking.

No one from the west was asked or allowed to be involved with that particular part of the C&BL. Interesting how you immediately went to that part of the discussion. Since that is the only reason for USAPA’s existence. To avoid binding arbitration. If you guys had accepted the result than come to us and said “let’s start a new CBAâ€￾ I think most of us would have been on board.

No one from the West took USAPA seriously or wanted anything to do with its formation, including the C&BL. That was their choice. I went to that part of the discussion because that is the provision that seems to fuel the "we'll always be outvoted" argument.

I have seen many missteps by the East MEC, from negotiations, secretive meetings, filing of lawsuits, irrelevant picketing events, micromanagement of committees, the silly "5000 days since the start of retroactive pay" mantra, etc. I have also witnessed the collective apathy of the pilots on this property for many years, and I cannot offer any excuses. This (along with the clever and self-serving governance rules) are what allowed ALPA to insulate itself from the needs and wishes of the average pilot. The catalyst for change was the hopelessly flawed and hence unimplemented Nic award, but USAPA exists because of ALPA's arrogance and poor stewardship. Otherwise, what could explain the many hundreds of USAPA voters who would be affected little or none by Nic?

Speaking of other problems in our base. Is USAPA going to do a pairing review as required in our contract or blow that off again this month. They seemed to have missed that last month. Not really representing the west are they?

They represent the West in every meaningful way, to include disciplinary and greviance representation, and the extension of services to currently non-dues-paying pilots. If some provision of your contract was overlooked, perhaps it is because no one who has worked under it has volunteered for the Contract Liaison position. Again, your choice.

Sorry, but until you accept the legal and binding agreement that your side has failed to follow. There will be no working together.

Except that there was no agreement. There was an arbitration award, although calling it legal is a stretch, as it has no basis in ALPA merger policy, labor law, past practice or common sense. You forget that this was only part of a process (and we were clearly informed that ALPA is all about the process). By steadfastly refusing to negotiate appropriate protections for the East pilots, the West aborted the process before it became legal and binding in a combined CBA. With the organization which demanded arbitration gone, it is an interesting footnote, but effectively moot.

That's the way I see it, and if that means you feel we cannot ever reach a point where we can work together while having differing opinions, then so be it. I will continue to do my job, and I will act courteously toward all others so long as that courtesy is returned.

 

[767jetz]

Wow, a lot of 1st post posters who are jumping right into it as if they are experienced posters here......

Click "report" on the suspect post and let the moderators know. I believe they can check the IP address and see if it's anyone who is banned or on a time out and shouldn't be posting.