US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[GorgeousGeorge]

“a union may not juggle the seniority roster for no reason other than
to advance one group of employees over another,”

Rakestraw v. United Airlines, Inc., 981 F.2d 1524 (7th Cir. 1992)

Keep spreading the lie that USAPA can negotiate any kind of list they want.

Please educate yourself.

http://openjurist.org/981/f2d/1524

Furthermore, the 9th Circuit views the Nicalou as a proposal created by a process of the previous bargaining agent.

A single list required multiple events, including a joint ratified contract. The process is being completed by USAPA, the legal agent and signatory of the agreements. Still requires single ratified agreement to complete. No lists are being juggled. One "union process" has been substituted by another "union process" and that "proposal" allows a vote in the affirmative for a single contract, the process will be complete.

 

[nic4us]

The Nic is not zero sum for the company. It would cost much more for the company to get a contract, that would pass, with the Nic than with DOH, and that might be the answer to what would drive Doug.

This may be so, however, the original debate centered around whether or not the company could get usapa parked at the negotiating table and therefore save themselves at least 10 million a month vs. any new contract.

I think the company could indeed refuse to budge over the seniority dispute. They are already on record saying as much to the NMB when usapa requested mediation in the first place.

The only way to remove that obstacle from the company's arsenal, is to pass the Nic list at the negotiating table. Which by the way could be used as a devastating curve ball, if the company's intention is to stall. Imagine the company agreeing to things they normaly would not care to anticipating further delay, then dropping the Nic at them and saying ok, we are done time to vote.

 

[LSS]

This may be so, however, the original debate centered around whether or not the company could get usapa parked at the negotiating table and therefore save themselves at least 10 million a month vs. any new contract.

I think the company could indeed refuse to budge over the seniority dispute. They are already on record saying as much to the NMB when usapa requested mediation in the first place.

The only way to remove that obstacle from the company's arsenal, is to pass the Nic list at the negotiating table. Which by the way could be used as a devastating curve ball, if the company's intention is to stall. Imagine the company agreeing to things they normaly would not care to anticipating further delay, then dropping the Nic at them and saying ok, we are done time to vote.

DREAM ON.....

 

[nic4us]

Please educate yourself.

http://openjurist.org/981/f2d/1524

Furthermore, the 9th Circuit views the Nicalou as a proposal created by a process of the previous bargaining agent.

A single list required multiple events, including a joint ratified contract. The process is being completed by USAPA, the legal agent and signatory of the agreements. Still requires single ratified agreement to complete. No lists are being juggled. One "union process" has been substituted by another "union process" and that "proposal" allows a vote in the affirmative for a single contract, the process will be complete.

Go read that TA again.

A single list required ALPA merger policy, that was followed and completed prior to the NMB election.

The implementation or use of that completed list required joint ratification of a single CBA.

The list was done, the contract was not. What usapa is attempting is a juggling of a completed list.

 

[RSVP767]

This may be so, however, the original debate centered around whether or not the company could get usapa parked at the negotiating table and therefore save themselves at least 10 million a month vs. any new contract.

I think the company could indeed refuse to budge over the seniority dispute. They are already on record saying as much to the NMB when usapa requested mediation in the first place.

The only way to remove that obstacle from the company's arsenal, is to pass the Nic list at the negotiating table. Which by the way could be used as a devastating curve ball, if the company's intention is to stall. Imagine the company agreeing to things they normaly would not care to anticipating further delay, then dropping the Nic at them and saying ok, we are done time to vote.

That's some good $#!% man! :wacko: Time for a drug test dude.

DREAM ON......

 

[Freighterguynow]

I guess its the only way to milk money out of the rubes to pay off legal bills.

The angry Nic or nothing club !

 

[Freighterguynow]

the company could get usapa parked at the negotiating table and therefore save themselves at least 10 million a month vs. any new contract.

Or they could benefit from parking USAPA by, if needed, shutting down PHX and avoiding the expense of paid moves and retraining West pilots on East metal.

See, I can speculate too.

AOL - the angry Nic or nothing club.

 

[luvn737s]

USAPA does not need to support all pilots, just the majority -

So how is USAPA any better than ALPA? You've made the principal argument for replacing USAPA with a new CBA that truly DOES represent all US pilots and can provide the level of service expected from a union.

 

[luvn737s]

Nic4,

Your posts continually infer that an "unquestionably ripe" lawsuit equates to guilt. You love to tie the two together. However, you need to stop equating "unquestionably ripe" with "unquestionably guilty" or you may find youeself "unquestionably disappointed".

Yes, once a contract is ratified you may have a lawsuit that is ripe. No guarantee you will prevail or even be heard.

Ripeness does not guarantee guilt! Good luck!

Did you happen to hear about a jury that found USAPA guilty of a DFR already? What would make them "un-guilty" the next time around?

There's way too much between here and a ratified contract to begin counting your chickens (or would that be PHX captain's lines).

 

[luvn737s]

And if the west rank and file views USAPA's bargaining position as reasonable and worthy of support, then so much the better in the event of a cooling off period scenario.

Hmm, what do you suppose would make a west pilot willing to strike to help the very group that trying to dismantle their career? You really need to sell me on that one sport.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Did you happen to hear about a jury that found USAPA guilty of a DFR already? What would make them "un-guilty" the next time around?

Maybe next time the jury would get to hear all the evidence, not only what the well-spanked desert judge decided what he wanted them to hear to assure a guilty verdict.

Maybe that fact would "make them 'un-guilty' the next time around."

Hmm, what do you suppose would make a west pilot willing to strike to help the very group that trying to dismantle their career? You really need to sell me on that one sport.

I don't doubt for one second that the west would cross a USAPA picket line. What would lead me, or any other east pilot, to believe anything different. You're giving us no news, here.

 

[RSVP767]

Did you happen to hear about a jury that found USAPA guilty of a DFR already? What would make them "un-guilty" the next time around?

There's way too much between here and a ratified contract to begin counting your chickens (or would that be PHX captain's lines).

Yes, I did hear about a 'Kangaroo Court' in the desert, and a case that will soon be DISMISSED by the wayward judge. Next time ALL the facts and evidence will be heard (if there is a 'next time around').

Not counting chickens yet. Personally, I could care less about ANY seat in PHX....keep it!

 

[Lance Stallion]

Choosing to renegotiate the Nic gives tacit approval to the strategy of changing bargaining agents as a means of avoiding the results of binding arbitration.

This has widespread implications across all of organized labor and should be as vehemently opposed by other labor groups as the past strategy of taking a company into bankruptcy for the sole purpose of abrogating labor contracts and breaking unions.

USAPA - The Frank Lorenzo of pilot's unions!

Renegotiation has no place in reality.

The "nic" is dead. period.

 

[767jetz]

I've got to say that this thread has been mostly civil for the the last few pages. Something not seen here for months, if not years.

Until Lance Stallion showed up, that is.

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA does not need to support all pilots, just the majority - while not discriminating purposely against the minority. If USAPA can get a T/A out for a vote which garners a majority of yes votes from the east - as well as the west - separately, then they have a much better chance of fighting off any future legal challenges.

And if the west rank and file views USAPA's bargaining position as reasonable and worthy of support, then so much the better in the event of a cooling off period scenario.

The NIC dead enders will never be satisfied. But if the majority of west MIGS view a USAPA crafted T/A as acceptable, then I believe that would be game, set and match - with both sides winning in the long run.

But there is no separate vote. When usapa came on the property they took that away. There is no separate east west to compromise on the Nicolau.

I continue to find it interesting that the east thinks that an east built (no west pilot no the merger committee) could somehow be crafted to satisfy the west. That is like asking management to craft what they think is a fair contract and the pilots just accept it.