US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

The company is required by Federal law to bargain in "good faith" with USAPA. Since the 9th circuit has ruled in a published opinion that "any contract containing the Nicolau award would undoubtably be voted down" the company could not insist on a Nicolau contract knowing that it could never pass a vote. The company can't now legally use Nic as leverage to prevent a contract. The proposed seniority list has to be something different than Nic to be voted in and DOH with reasonable and fair C&R's would certainly be ratifiable.

Any seniority list is zero sum and zero cost to the company so long as it does not trigger extra training costs, displacements etc. Pilot cost to the company would be the same with either Nic or DOH. Should the company try to use Nic as leverage to prevent or delay a contract knowing it is not ratifiable as ruled by the 9th circuit then USAPA could easily sue the company in Federal court for negotiating in "bad faith".

underpants

I think that you need to put that statement in context. It is from a footnote in the opinion. The ninth did not talk about the companies good faith they talked about usapa's good faith requirement.

But none of that has any proof. A contract with the Nic was never sent out so it is pure speculation what the outcome would be.

The company knows the DOH is usapa's number one item. Parker will charge usapa big money to get that. From day one usapa said that seniority is negotiated like a crew meal. No requirement for the company to just accept a list but will extract as much as possible from the union if they will agree. So you are right it is not a no cost item it is a money maker for the company. How much is the east willing to buy DOH for?

The present impasse, in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’ claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members — both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

 

[Piedmont1984]

But there is no separate vote. When usapa came on the property they took that away. There is no separate east west to compromise on the Nicolau.

I continue to find it interesting that the east thinks that an east built (no west pilot no the merger committee) could somehow be crafted to satisfy the west. That is like asking management to craft what they think is a fair contract and the pilots just accept it.

No, you don't have to just accept it.

What I am trying to say, obviously without much success, is that if the majority of PHX MIGS vote yes to a T/A, then that is a de facto approval of a USAPA crafted contract - and is a far better outcome than an east-only driven ratification. And the way for USAPA to achieve this is to pass a section 22 across the table which the west can live with. And the way to achieve this is to tweak the DOH list and the C&R's just enough to secure such approval, reluctant though it may be, from the west.

And all the above translates into increased leverage vis a vis the company in obtaining the best possible overall contract, should we ever come to a cooling off period.

 

[Richard]

Folks, we just took out an apparent troll, thank you to those who reported him rather than going back at him...he's gone for now.

Keep it civil and observe the rules!

 

[luvn737s]

No, you don't have to just accept it.

What I am trying to say, obviously without much success, is that if the majority of PHX MIGS vote yes to a T/A, then that is a de facto approval of a USAPA crafted contract - and is a far better outcome than an east-only driven ratification. And the way for USAPA to achieve this is to pass a section 22 across the table which the west can live with. And the way to achieve this is to tweak the DOH list and the C&R's just enough to secure such approval, reluctant though it may be, from the west.

And all the above translates into increased leverage vis a vis the company in obtaining the best possible overall contract, should we ever come to a cooling off period.

If Cleary was interested in bipartisan support, don't you suppose he would make some sort of effort to visit the largest pilot base (PHX) even occasionally? Don't you think they would put together a panel cosisting of a wide spectrum of east and west pilots and re-craft the so-called Conditions and Restrictions and place them for a vote prior to their being entered into the negotiating platform?

No, you see none of this because Cleary has no confidence in his ability to lead in the face of strong opposition and the entire union is a reflection of some small-man syndrome.

 

[cleardirect]

No, you don't have to just accept it.

What I am trying to say, obviously without much success, is that if the majority of PHX MIGS vote yes to a T/A, then that is a de facto approval of a USAPA crafted contract - and is a far better outcome than an east-only driven ratification. And the way for USAPA to achieve this is to pass a section 22 across the table which the west can live with. And the way to achieve this is to tweak the DOH list and the C&R's just enough to secure such approval, reluctant though it may be, from the west.

And all the above translates into increased leverage vis a vis the company in obtaining the best possible overall contract, should we ever come to a cooling off period.

What makes you think that there is any possible C&R that will make DOH acceptable to the west?

There is no separate vote so there is no way to know how anyone voted. So there is no de facto approval. Are you guys beginning to understand the box usapa is in? Since usapa became the bargaining agent they took away the west.

Looking at the rest of the contract what the west will see is all of the money going to the east and now you guys want DOH also. What reason would the west have to vote for any contract with a seniority list not the Nicolau?

As far as cooling off and leverage. Not likely.

 

[luvn737s]

I don't doubt for one second that the west would cross a USAPA picket line. What would lead me, or any other east pilot, to believe anything different. You're giving us no news, here.

So tell me how can you continue to support a union that knows it can never successfully pull off a strike - the one tool in it's arsenal. Cleary struts around like a live action Cartman demanding that Parker (and the west pilots he holds in such disdain)"respect his authorit-ay". Parker is no idiot. He knows that he controls the pace of negotiations and he will hand Cleary a little insufficient pie and tell him he can divide it however he wants.

So he can't deliver a significantly better contract and he doesn't have the leverage of a strike. All he can do is villify the west and maybe deliver the junior east F/O's a new base to upgrade in by taking from the west pilots. How can you say that's good enough?

A replacement for USAPA could multiply the leverage of a combined and unified pilot group and actually produce results for all the money spent, something USAPA can never do, regardless of what they promise.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What I am trying to say, obviously without much success, is that if the majority of PHX MIGS vote yes to a T/A, then that is a de facto approval of a USAPA crafted contract - and is a far better outcome than an east-only driven ratification. And the way for USAPA to achieve this is to pass a section 22 across the table which the west can live with. And the way to achieve this is to tweak the DOH list and the C&R's just enough to secure such approval, reluctant though it may be, from the west.

So 50% +1 of West MIGS vote for a contract that doesn't have NIC - but less than half of active West pilots. So does that mean that USAPA satisfied it's DFR or not? Of course, one twist that is seldom memtioned is the SCOTUS ruling that an approving majority doesn't mean that a union satisfied it's DFR.

Jim

 

[informed]

Many of the think aloud postings by the West and their questions would best be brought up at the PHX meeting tomorrow. It would be nice if you could tape this meeting and put it on youtube, I am sure it will be a very interesting exchange of opinions.

Please make a note of the following Leonidas informational meeting in July.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So 50% +1 of West MIGS vote for a contract that doesn't have NIC - but less than half of active West pilots. So does that mean that USAPA satisfied it's DFR or not? Of course, one twist that is seldom memtioned is the SCOTUS ruling that an approving majority doesn't mean that a union satisfied it's DFR.

Jim

There is no other way to gauge the west's support for a T/A. Those who have not become MIGS by the time a vote goes out - well I'm sorry to say - they have none. My intuition tells me that the MIGS number will be higher than it is today and that 50% +1 will represent a true majority of west pilots come ratification day.

And simple numbers will tell you and I within a reasonable margin whether PHX voted for or against. The IT geeks could probably determine the exact base by base numbers.

I suppose a single pilot could file a DFR claim. But if PHX says yes to a T/A, then the prospects of a serious lawsuit from AOL is significantly diminished - IMHO.

 

[cleardirect]

There is no other way to gauge the west's support for a T/A. Those who have not become MIGS by the time a vote goes out - well I'm sorry to say - they have none. My intuition tells me that the MIGS number will be higher than it is today and that 50% +1 will represent a true majority of west pilots come ratification day.

And simple numbers will tell you and I within a reasonable margin whether PHX voted for or against. The IT geeks could probably determine the exact base by base numbers.

I suppose a single pilot could file a DFR claim. But if PHX says yes to a T/A, then the prospects of a serious lawsuit from AOL is significantly diminished - IMHO.

Let me be very clear. PHX will never vote for a contract with DOH and any C&R.

Just like the east tells us that you will never vote for a contract with Nicolau. The west will never vote for a contract with DOH. So want happens then? The contract gets voted in by 2600 to 1000. All east vote yes, all west votes no. Now we have an unquestionably ripe DFR case and file again. Even if it is 3000 to 600. The only question that needs to be asked of the plaintiffs. Did you vote for the contract. NO! Good enough, Those pilots have a valid claim of DFR.

At least with the Nicolau the east is going to get much more money. With DOH or Nic the west is not going to get much if anything from a new contract.

So tell us what reason does the west have to vote yes with DOH? Our seniority is not for sale. Is the east willing to buy yours with a poor contract?

Once again there is no separate vote. The IT geeks can not go in and split the vote. It is a single vote, that is what usapa told the court why they took over. To break the impasse. Except we are right back with an impasse of usapa making.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Clear

Those pilots may have a claim, I suppose it's just like opinions. The question would be do they have a claim which will prevail in court.

As far as your certainty that PHX would never vote yes for a T/A sans Nic, let me remind you of the abundance of predictions concerning first the decertification cards, then the representational vote, then the number of MIGS in the west, then our prospects at the 9th - all of which were wrong.

And your comment about seniority not being for sale is something the east has been saying for over three years now, so that sentiment cuts both ways.

And to answer your question - the west would vote yes because they realize a decent contract and a few years of delay to their career expectations is the better path to take.

 

[Ames]

Many of the think aloud postings by the West and their questions would best be brought up at the PHX meeting tomorrow. It would be nice if you could tape this meeting and put it on youtube, I am sure it will be a very interesting exchange of opinions.

Please make a note of the following Leonidas informational meeting in July.

This happening is about as likely as a blizzard in Phoenix today.

 

[Pi brat]

There is no separate vote so there is no way to know how anyone voted.

I don't know how ballotpoint works but we have have election results that said x percentage of this base voted this way, so you couldn't tell how an individual voted but since there are no east pilots in PHX and yes votes are west votes.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear

Those pilots may have a claim, I suppose it's just like opinions. The question would be do they have a claim which will prevail in court.

As far as your certainty that PHX would never vote yes for a T/A sans Nic, let me remind you of the abundance of predictions concerning first the decertification cards, then the representational vote, then the number of MIGS in the west, then our prospects at the 9th - all of which were wrong.

And your comment about seniority not being for sale is something the east has been saying for over three years now, so that sentiment cuts both ways.

And to answer your question - the west would vote yes because they realize a decent contract and a few years of delay to their career expectations is the better path to take.

Exactly my points. Accepting the Nicolau with a decent contract and waiting a few years is a better path to take. If the east had done that three years ago we could of all have a better contract then.

Why are my predictions of never voting for a contract with DOH any better or worse then east prediction of never voting for a Nicolau contract?

I keep coming back to the same point. The east wants all of the money and all of the seniority using DOH. Under Nicolau we share the seniority and the east still gets most of the money. It really is that simple. Nicolau balanced all of the factors. usapa takes both sides of the equation.

Do you think that a 3,5,10% raise and reduction in other parts of the contract even setting aside seniority is good for the west? That is what usapa is doing to our contract. Transfering and giving away good parts of our contract because they don't understand it or it is not what you guys have always had.

I will look at the contract and say I got a 10% raise but gave up other parts of the contract, while the east got a 28% raise plus 10 days of vacation improved work rules and other things. Throw DOH seniority in there and the west is screwed.

No thank you.

Carry that seniority list into the next merger and the west is done for. Any C&R would be useless in the next merger. No protection at all. what lock us in PHX for the next merger the east can go bid any new domicile but the west can not.

usapa put us all in a box. Enjoy LOA 93 until retirement or face another DFR or accept the Nicolau list. Those are the choices.

 

[nycbusdriver]

And simple numbers will tell you and I within a reasonable margin whether PHX voted for or against. The IT geeks could probably determine the exact base by base numbers.

BallotPoint has always provided the breakdown of votes by base. The union (even the previous union) consistently published that breakdown for elections. For example, we knew exactly what percentages of each base voted for LOA 93, and that PHL and PIT were the only bases to vote it down by a large margin.

In the event of a new contract vote, it won't even take an IT genius. The software is obviously already set up to provide that information.