American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[Tim Nelson]

https://fox2now.com/2019/01/03/herb...9uC4nSJZZ0VPs_PCVrgMjoj30nAM8cTKGFDLE76esubwI

 

[WeAAsles]

You forgot the 4,600 Piedmont Express passenger service agents represented by the Communications Workers of America. As reservations, ticket, and gate agents; ramp agents; baggage service agents;

And another 4000+ at subsidiary Envoy Air

John John can you explain to me what the hell is going on with this CWA Represented Envoy Group?

I was talking to a sweet young girl last night who used to work for Eulen on the ramp inspecting the International arrivals and now she is upstairs sending bags down the chute.

She’s making around $9.50 per hour upstairs (She took the hook of Flight Benefits) over what she used to make downstairs which was about $13.50. She said they offer Medical at $60 per month but she can’t afford it.

#1 I thought those jobs were supposed to be CARS jobs?
# 2 What again is the story behind the CWA Representing this Group and how are their contract talks going?

CWA only has the outstations per the NMB ruling about 2 years ago. TWU got most former AA stations for ramp and are trying to get the company to add BNA, MEM, MSY along with IAH, ABA, and IND. Envoy and AA know that having union in these stations, especially in IAH, will dramatically reduce the cost benefit that Envoy gives paying ridiculously low wages. They would have to upguage staff tremendously at higher pay. That's why in my opinion I think AA is bs'ing about not reopening more stations. With some of these stations, they may not have a choice. In particular IAH that is well over the threshold in respect to flights.

I heard they were trying to get reopened 16 cities and the majority of those were the ones that we (TWU) lost in the Bankruptcy that Parker had offered for us to keep if the Merger had needed to be forced.

Those Stations and that offer I would emphasize to the Mediator that since they offered them once, there is ZERO reason they can’t offer them now.

 

[WeAAsles]

The topic of this thread is "Negotiations". That's why you should have given a crap about United. I keep telling you that and Gary Peterson that, but you guys don't listen. Has nothing to do with any hatred, I talk about United, because I have to when we approach the topic of negotiations.
You do realize we are involved in pattern bargaining now, right? And as soon as the IAM gave up $0 cost health insurance for $400 health insurance, and other things, it forced LUS insurance down the toilet. Especially after we gave up all of our leverage with the cross utilization.

BTW, if you listened to any of the company videos and town halls they keep sticking this United agreement up our butt. Why? For you, Baskett, and Peterson to discredit the United ramp deal tells me that you guys have absolutely no idea on the predicament we are in. Baskett himself voted to recommend the United deal and then told me here (Search for it) that he did so because it was 'none of his business' and he didn't want United AGC's voting against any LUS contract. The problem Brother Baskett has is that he failed to realize that the United contract would come back to haunt us.

You asked what did they give up? The United Ramp/Stores Contract 2005-2009 gave up everything. Went from $0 health care to $300-$500 depending upon city. Part time was capped at 30% systemwide, now it is unlimited. In ORD we had 30 United part timers. Now they have close to 300 and expanding as people retire. You like to talk about Delta, but Delta will end up with less part time than United. Klemm said he did this to expand the union membership. 2 part timers = twice the dues with the IAM. Why did the IAM give up massive concessions? To expand membership. The contract was sold by 'expanding scope' into express at hubs, but this is only good for another few years. A short term gain that is going bye bye.....just in time for the IAM to mobilize UGE to fill in the gaps in 2023. So the IAM won't lose any members. The IAM has already used UGE to fill in several stations that used to be mainline union. Take for instance Ontario. All mainline people there were removed for UGE. Then they all got a letter saying that they could return to ONT and continue their IAM membership but at $11 for UGE.

But perhaps one of the biggest concessions at United was getting rid of the Lead Pay Scale. The Lead Pay Scale only had one step. Top Out + Lead Pay.
That means if you were a 2 year fleet serviceman, and you took lead, you didn't have to go up any progression, you went straight to top out.

And of course they gave up a lot of other things as well. Cut their profit sharing in half. Eliminated the .75 longevity pay, and a host of other things.

Tim when you write in a more normal way like you just did here you get more attention. I wish you could learn to realize that.

Look if I worked for United outside of whatever was being forced down my throat because of a Bankruptcy hammer I may have advocated, lobbied and voted totally different than the “MAJORITY” chose.

But the fact is that we ARE in Unions and we need to recognize that what we want is not going to be supported again by that majority who (frustratingly sometimes) vote against our wishes.

Just again to remind you. No I couldn’t stand that multicolored brochure that the UAL Negotiators put out back in 2013 but the Membership there bought it even if it had a bunch of trap doors. Again they went for the Money Tim.

You yourself said that your 141 Negotiators did a good job in 2014. You supported and voted in favor of that deal. And those guys earned some of my respect for NOT putting it out in multi colored glam eye popping candy to entice their Members to jump on it. It held up cause it was good.

Yes I agree we need to pay attention at what’s done over at UAL but we can’t obsess with it either since it’s NOT our Airline and we don’t work there. (Just like we don’t work for Delta either)

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim when you write in a more normal way like you just did here you get more attention. I wish you could learn to realize that.

Look if I worked for United outside of whatever was being forced down my throat because of a Bankruptcy hammer I may have advocated, lobbied and voted totally different than the “MAJORITY” chose.

But the fact is that we ARE in Unions and we need to recognize that what we want is not going to be supported again by that majority who (frustratingly sometimes) vote against our wishes.

Just again to remind you. No I couldn’t stand that multicolored brochure that the UAL Negotiators put out back in 2013 but the Membership there bought it even if it had a bunch of trap doors. Again they went for the Money Tim.

You yourself said that your 141 Negotiators did a good job in 2014. You supported and voted in favor of that deal. And those guys earned some of my respect for NOT putting it out in multi colored glam eye popping candy to entice their Members to jump on it. It held up cause it was good.

Yes I agree we need to pay attention at what’s done over at UAL but we can’t obsess with it either since it’s NOT our Airline and we don’t work there. (Just like we don’t work for Delta either)

The TWU and association gave us the leverage in 14. I supported the association and the 14 contract until they put it in sec 6 without a vote.

 

[WeAAsles]

The company and IBT/CWA allowed the (MAY BE PERFORMED)language.

This is not exclusively CWA/IBT CSCs ; CSAs or CAR work

This work may be performed bycontractors or other employees of the Company (delivering gate checked baggage to fleet service) or (transporting of checked baggage)

And these are areas where the TWU had/have concerns on the IAM LUS Scope language that we don’t want in our future JCBA and your group gives us the heads up that the Company will use the language given a chance to save cost.

“The Company reserves the right”
“When and where so directed”

 

[WeAAsles]

The TWU and association gave us the leverage in 14. I supported the association and the 14 contract until they put it in sec 6 without a vote.

Tim I have to point out again that you gave up your right to vote anyway which is something I don’t think you should have done. Had you fought their charges against you you could have been viewed as a martyr for your causes. By resigning you only made yourself look like the coward. So what if you lost and they threw fines at you.

Anyway believe who you want to believe when it comes to talks and bellow and howl at the moon for all it will get you. Whatever it was that was presented to the Association by the Company was not accepted to be put out and there’s nothing either you or I can do about it.

And I wouldn’t accept what I heard it was from the details anyway and apparently if you had a vote you would. (You don’t even have a vote though)

 

[Tim Nelson]

And these are areas where the TWU had/have concerns on the IAM LUS Scope language that we don’t want in our future JCBA and your group gives us the heads up that the Company will use the language given a chance to save cost.

“The Company reserves the right”
“When and where so directed”

View attachment 13648 View attachment 13647

Weez, our scope language is far far far superior than yours. There is no "When and Where" except for work not covered in the other articles.
For instance, All stations are locked into scope and CAN"T be closed unless they go less than 7 flights per week. Catering, 3 cargo centers can NOT be contracted out. Plus we have several items you don't have like Tower (200 jobs), Central Load Planning ( 150 jobs) and of course Catering (450 jobs).

Not sure why you keep saying 'when and where"??? Puzzling indeed. Then I look at your contract and you guys gave up everything except loading and unloading, and lavs. Lavs is only 15 jobs here. Maybe 50 systemwide??? The only time 'when and where' directed comes into play is when the company ask us at our smaller stations to do lavs, cleaning, etc. And in stations like FLL, we did some charters and other airline work. Sorta how LAA did Alaska Airlines in ORD, that was 'when and where'. But we have far superior scope than you guys. Hell, even what you have is already subject to being contracted out in ATL, TPA, SJU since it is below the ridiculously high threshold. I imagine we will be giving up our superior scope of "1 flight per day" and will lower the bar to less than your asinine 25 flights a day. But that language will pertain to future stations. The only scope that Fly said the company was interested in was to keep all current scope, minus catering, lavs, and phasing out all smaller stations with a drop dead letter, and a small amount of grandfathering. The "Last Offer" prior to September 12th offered ALL CURRENT SCOPE, even small stations, and catering. That offer was a 'take it or leave it'. In America we say, "Gone but not forgotten". So, lavs is gone as well as catering and the small stations eventually. But there still isn't any 'when and where' directed that Fly said the company offered in the 'current non small stations'.

 

[WeAAsles]

Weez, our scope language is far far far superior than yours. There is no "When and Where" except for work not covered in the other articles.
For instance, All stations are locked into scope and CAN"T be closed unless they go less than 7 flights per week. Catering, 3 cargo centers can NOT be contracted out. Plus we have several items you don't have like Tower (200 jobs), Central Load Planning ( 150 jobs) and of course Catering (450 jobs).

Not sure why you keep saying 'when and where"??? Puzzling indeed. Then I look at your contract and you guys gave up everything except loading and unloading, and lavs. Lavs is only 15 jobs here. Maybe 50 systemwide??? The only time 'when and where' directed comes into play is when the company ask us at our smaller stations to do lavs, cleaning, etc. And in stations like FLL, we did some charters and other airline work. Sorta how LAA did Alaska Airlines in ORD, that was 'when and where'. But we have far superior scope than you guys. Hell, even what you have is already subject to being contracted out in ATL, TPA, SJU since it is below the ridiculously high threshold. I imagine we will be giving up our superior scope of "1 flight per day" and will lower the bar to less than your asinine 25 flights a day. But that language will pertain to future stations. The only scope that Fly said the company was interested in was to keep all current scope, minus catering, lavs, and phasing out all smaller stations with a drop dead letter, and a small amount of grandfathering. The "Last Offer" prior to September 12th offered ALL CURRENT SCOPE, even small stations, and catering. That offer was a 'take it or leave it'. In America we say, "Gone but not forgotten". So, lavs is gone as well as catering and the small stations eventually. But there still isn't any 'when and where' directed that Fly said the company offered in the 'current non small stations'.

Tim cut the crap. You just quoted the areas of concern that I posted. When and where so directed is all over your contract. That and your lunch schedule bites, you have practically zero PT language and management can direct your workforce.

But I’m not (Unlike you) cherry picking to aggravate and start arguments. There are good and bad things in your contract and there are good and bad things in my contract.

And BOTH contracts STILL have BANKRUPTCY language that was shoved down ALL of our throats!!!!! So cut the crap and the bull.

Wow so you’re ok with giving up Catering, Lavs, (You forgot Deicing) F off “drop dead” small stations and SOME Grandfathering. (Where’s your Buddy Kev now)

Not interested bro, sorry.

 

[WeAAsles]

Weez, our scope language is far far far superior than yours. There is no "When and Where" except for work not covered in the other articles.
For instance, All stations are locked into scope and CAN"T be closed unless they go less than 7 flights per week. Catering, 3 cargo centers can NOT be contracted out. Plus we have several items you don't have like Tower (200 jobs), Central Load Planning ( 150 jobs) and of course Catering (450 jobs).

Not sure why you keep saying 'when and where"??? Puzzling indeed. Then I look at your contract and you guys gave up everything except loading and unloading, and lavs. Lavs is only 15 jobs here. Maybe 50 systemwide??? The only time 'when and where' directed comes into play is when the company ask us at our smaller stations to do lavs, cleaning, etc. And in stations like FLL, we did some charters and other airline work. Sorta how LAA did Alaska Airlines in ORD, that was 'when and where'. But we have far superior scope than you guys. Hell, even what you have is already subject to being contracted out in ATL, TPA, SJU since it is below the ridiculously high threshold. I imagine we will be giving up our superior scope of "1 flight per day" and will lower the bar to less than your asinine 25 flights a day. But that language will pertain to future stations. The only scope that Fly said the company was interested in was to keep all current scope, minus catering, lavs, and phasing out all smaller stations with a drop dead letter, and a small amount of grandfathering. The "Last Offer" prior to September 12th offered ALL CURRENT SCOPE, even small stations, and catering. That offer was a 'take it or leave it'. In America we say, "Gone but not forgotten". So, lavs is gone as well as catering and the small stations eventually. But there still isn't any 'when and where' directed that Fly said the company offered in the 'current non small stations'.

BTW Tim again and again and again and again and again and again I’m going to continue to remind you that we (TWU) are still in our BANKRUPTCY contract.

How long were you stuck in yours and how’s your DBP from the Company doing? Oh that’s right gone all the way back in 1992 and replaced at the time with NOTHING.

Didn’t you also start at Piedmont or something?

Tim Nelson and Delta Kevin I guess have mental recall issues on this word here?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Didn’t you also start at Piedmont or something?

piedmont must have stronger roots in the new aa than those that wore shirts with 'aa' patches and paid dues to to the twu local.

you lucked out if you were air cal, but not reno?

there's my beef. twu dropped the ball.

 

[WeAAsles]

piedmont must have stronger roots in the new aa than those that wore shirts with 'aa' patches and paid dues to to the twu local.

you lucked out if you were air cal, but not reno?

there's my beef. twu dropped the ball.

Crema are you kidding me here? AMR AA didn’t buy USAIRWAYS. Why in the world if I’m thinking what I think you’re thinking should former Piedmont people go below you and I?

And as far as Air Cal and Reno Air (Or TWA for that matter) not to put you down cause I like ya but those issues were around 185 years ago now.

Every Airline has tons of different Seniority issues in their respective histories. And it was and always will be impossible to please everyone when those things need to be sorted out.

Edit: Piedmont was absorbed by USAIRWAYS back in 1989.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piedmont_Airlines_(1948–89)

 

[Colonel.Ramp]

John John can you explain to me what the hell is going on with this CWA Represented Envoy Group?

I was talking to a sweet young girl last night who used to work for Eulen on the ramp inspecting the International arrivals and now she is upstairs sending bags down the chute.

She’s making around $9.50 per hour upstairs (She took the hook of Flight Benefits) over what she used to make downstairs which was about $13.50. She said they offer Medical at $60 per month but she can’t afford it.

#1 I thought those jobs were supposed to be CARS jobs?
# 2 What again is the story behind the CWA Representing this Group and how are their contract talks going?



I heard they were trying to get reopened 16 cities and the majority of those were the ones that we (TWU) lost in the Bankruptcy that Parker had offered for us to keep if the Merger had needed to be forced.

Those Stations and that offer I would emphasize to the Mediator that since they offered them once, there is ZERO reason they can’t offer them now.

Yes I have heard 14-16 cities as well last year before talks went South. I agree there is no reason not to offer these stations again. Question: Has Envoy ever operated cargo anywhere ever? There is a strong chance we are taking back cargo from WFS as Envoy. I don't see how that is possible knowing how much AA outsourced cargo and took jobs from your side to save money. There is an 85% chance this is going to happen. I would bring this up to your mediators and locals. Our international president (not officially yet) said he wasn't even aware of us doing this. They are clueless unless I provide them with information they probably will not act on.

 

[Colonel.Ramp]

Crema are you kidding me here? AMR AA didn’t buy USAIRWAYS. Why in the world if I’m thinking what I think you’re thinking should former Piedmont people go below you and I?

And as far as Air Cal and Reno Air (Or TWA for that matter) not to put you down cause I like ya but those issues were around 185 years ago now.

Every Airline has tons of different Seniority issues in their respective histories. And it was and always will be impossible to please everyone when those things need to be sorted out.

Edit: Piedmont was absorbed by USAIRWAYS back in 1989.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piedmont_Airlines_(1948–89)

My little bit of Piedmont time went down the drain.

 

[ALUS78]

You forgot the 4,600 Piedmont Express passenger service agents represented by the Communications Workers of America. As reservations, ticket, and gate agents; ramp agents; baggage service agents;

And another 4000+ at subsidiary Envoy Air

Forgot or conveniently left out.His inaccurate union leaning posts tire me to no end only thing worse is when he feels hes losing a debate and starts posting silly videos.KInd of like knocking over the chess board when you know you are going to lose or covering your ears when someone is talking to you other than that I love the Weez

 

[WeAAsles]

Yes I have heard 14-16 cities as well last year before talks went South. I agree there is no reason not to offer these stations again. Question: Has Envoy ever operated cargo anywhere ever? There is a strong chance we are taking back cargo from WFS as Envoy. I don't see how that is possible knowing how much AA outsourced cargo and took jobs from your side to save money. There is an 85% chance this is going to happen. I would bring this up to your mediators and locals. Our international president (not officially yet) said he wasn't even aware of us doing this. They are clueless unless I provide them with information they probably will not act on.

Way back when it would have been AA people performing pretty much everything everywhere. I know when I hired on back in 95 at LGA it was our guys doing Freight and they had non union staff working Priority Parcel.

Probably most small cities have had cargo contracted out for a long time now. Hubs deal with much higher volumes and you have to build pallets for wide body loading.

Envoy as a name only came into being after the merger. Don’t know if Eagle handled it anywhere?