Delta Labor Relations thread.

[700UW]

I don't think he can grasp what an organizing campaign under the RLA entails.

 

[topDawg]

Sad as it is, this thread only exists because Delta does not treat "all" their employees fairly and pay them wages equivalent to union wages. It is difficult for some who have been union all their lives to understand the non-union, military style leadership that Delta promotes. That said, thE pendulum has swung in the direction of non-union. This will not change any time soon. The industrial union model is toast. People like 700UW are dinasours.

At the same time, this has not taken fire for several reasons. The employees are at-will, however, they are willing to trade that labor for what Delta is offering.

I am a big supporter of the right to bargain collectively.

The current workforce is more worried about their next Facebook post or instagram than they are putting in the work required to organize a campaign.

Do good work, and hope you get along with the boss.

I agree with this to a point. 
I am not worried about my next facebook post (and don't have an instagram) but part of the problem will continue to be that in the last 15 years a lot of Delta employees look at American and look at United and feel that we have done better. Why do I need, example, the IAM who has shown they have no problem outsourcing the vast majority of its members? Or the IBT who also agrees to more outsourcing and setting up a B scale? 
the only proud moment a union has had, in my craft, is when you guys walked(thanks for that again). Other than that, trade unions have sucked and even if they don't suck get zero support from the government. 
 

To be fair, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Uh, what are you talking about? Do you work for Delta? the company has its own little sub-section on DeltaNet completely devoted to the IAM. Why would they have this if the drives were dead? 
 
What is really going on here is you WANT them to be dead and post stupidly hoping it will make them go away. Doesn't work that way junior 
 

Cause you hide in your shop and don't interact nor work with the ramp workers.

And what you want to know or what' you think isn't relevant as you won't have a vote as your a shop mechanic.

Ah ole 700 condescending to a mechanic in a shop. Just because you think his job should be outsourced because the IAM thinks support shops are stupid doesn't mean southwind isn't relevant. Any union vote at the company means much more to me and him than it does you.  
 

Ever going to come up with an original thought?

You don't work the ramp, it doesn't effect you, do you not understand that fact?

Don't see you whining about the pilots and their CBA and ask.

Nor do you complain that Anderson makes millions, and has an employment contract.

Nor do you complain how DL spends millions with third parties to keep their employees from having a voice in the workplace.

IAM tell you say such stupid things or what? Any union vote does effect us. Example, the ramp votes in a union and goes on strike, are you saying that means nothing to everyone else? (maybe not, your union is known for scabbing work when other go on strike. Yet another attempt from the IAM to destroy aircraft maintenance)  
 

How would you go about fixing it?

i don't think you can at this point. As you see above I think unions like the IAM are crap. In-house or maybe AMFA, nothing else. (and in the case of the FAs I don't believe in joining a union with members who are trying to take your job, ie expressjet. I have the same issue with ALPA) 
 

I'm curious. If there are employees that want an "employment contract" at Delta and could have it without being part of any Union, would you or could you support their choice?

probably not. Anytime a vote gets called the pro-union people over celebrate and the anti-union crowd lets the butt hurt flow.  
 

People on this thread. Do you ever think about how many contracts you're a part of?

Mortgage, Rent, Water, Cable, Internet, Phone, Credit Cards, Etc.

All items that you need money to live up to the parameters of those contracts. But a few of you who fight against the idea tooth and nail don't have a contact to protect the biggest item in your lives. Your jobs.

To me it's like choosing to walk through the neighborhood with your pants down around your ankles.

I honestly have no clue what makes some of you tick?

very simple, like I said above, you can't offer me a current union contract for my craft from any of the airlines (including UPS and FedEx) that doesn't end up with me taking a big QOL hit (and in most cases send a lot of people out the door)
 
So tell me, why should I take a pay cut, lose my job, etc. etc. just to join a union? Let me know when a mechanic union signs a deal that doesn't mean concessions for me and we will talk.  

 

[700UW]

Dont put words into my mouth.
 
I dont advocate nor never supported outsourcing, my former classification was totally outsourced except for 50 jobs in the hangar in PIT and CLT, all line Utility was gone, so tell me why would I support outsourcing my own job?
 
You seem like a pretty smart guy, but why cant you grasp the fact the IAM and US couldnt reach an agreement in bankruptcy part two and out CBA was abrogated.
 
Do you know why we couldnt reach a deal?
 
Because they wanted to outsource and layoff 46% of the maintenance workforce and terminate our pension.
 
The IAM never agreed with the company and never agreed to outsourcing, it too a Judge's gavel to abrogate our CBA to permit outsourcing, which the IAM never negotiated nor agreed too.
 
Guess you dont know the IAM won a $400 million grievance against US for outsourcing 10 Airbus narrowbody planes to ST MAE?
 
I have a copy of the Arbitration Award if you would like to see it, PM me an e-mail address.
 
You truly have no idea of what transpired in chapter 11 at US, nor the gains made in the Transition Agreement, with the HP/US Merger.
 
So for once will you actually comprehend what happened?

 

[topDawg]

Oh and Petey. Don't tell me that you have the internal Company procedure to help you. You and I both know that once you go out that door, you'll never walk back through it again.

you don't know what you are talking about. 
 

All you have to do is look at the fighting the unions are starting at AA to see why most DL folks don't want a union

thats a part of it for sure. 
 

What fighting? Where? The Pilot letter? Big woop. That's just a little theater. A playful jab to keep management in line a little.

Aren't your Pilots Unionized as well? What, have they always been Lovey Dovey with management? LMAO. NOT!!!!!!!

I am going to go with, just an example, a few of your "brothers" who have said they are more than happy to outsource everyone below them for a big pay raise and geo pay. 
Just look at the current line v base arguments........
 

You mean you were disciplined for something. Have you ever been fired? If you were you obviously were brought back.

I bet these DL guys can't tell me a time they remember someone being fired who came back?

In MIA how many people do you know that got fired and were brought back?

I bet you are tossing typical pro-union crap and don't know what you are talking about. I know of quite a few people who should have been fired and were given more than 1 chance. 
 

And will call bullsh!t on this one as I personally know of 2 people, in my little insignificant shop area as 700 refers to it, that have walked back through the door!

I know of more than that. I have seen Delta give people chances, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, chances on issues that they shouldn't have. 
 

HOA.

So it's ok for DL to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to numerous third parties the outsource wor too?

Places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Mexico and other counties?

Is it okay for US to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to numerous third parties? 
Or does that not count? or is it only airframe work that counts? 
 
but I should be thanking people like you 700, without that it would probably mean AA was going to do its Trent XWB engines in-house, now they will probably be sent to Atlanta. 
 

I see your lying again.
Never said your shop was insignificant.

you have made it clear that you do whatever the IAM goes with. All the matters to you is airframe overhaul and line MX. 
So yes, you have made it clear that back shops, engines, landing gear, APUs, etc. etc. are stupid. Line and 50% airframe overhaul (and worst scope of any legacy) are great!  
 

Let me say from experience. If your satisfied the way the company treats you and compensates you within reasonable means then stay away from the IAM or any industrial union. It will just create stress on you and your family when it comes to negotiations and lack of communication. Why buy something you don't need? Just because someone from the outside looking in is telling you what's best for your own good?

exactly 
 

 
More lies from someone who never worked at DAL....

uh, exactly which part of that is a lie? 
 

You do realize 40% of DL's ramp and CSA are ready reserve employees?
 
Those 40% are subsidizing the full time and part time employees at DL.
 
Their medical is the worst and high copays and costs.
 
And DL is using RR in maintenance now, and has contractors working along side their own DL mainline employees.
DL's goal is 50% RR and 50% regular employees.

just two notes here
is the insurance what it use to be? no. A big part of that is ACA and you are going to find that its coming to unions across the industry. Not a damn thing they can do about it. (and IIRC the Delta pilots have the same insurance we do) 
second, RR in MX is in stores only AFAIK, however the contractor part is an issue. IIRC last summer they had enough contractors in hangar to run at least a bay completely on contractors (120 or so people) 

 

[topDawg]

Dont put words into my mouth.
 
I dont advocate nor never supported outsourcing, my former classification was totally outsourced except for 50 jobs in the hangar in PIT and CLT, all line Utility was gone, so tell me why would I support outsourcing my own job?
 
You seem like a pretty smart guy, but why cant you grasp the fact the IAM and US couldnt reach an agreement in bankruptcy part two and out CBA was abrogated.
 
Do you know why we couldnt reach a deal?
 
Because they wanted to outsource and layoff 46% of the maintenance workforce and terminate our pension.
 
The IAM never agreed with the company and never agreed to outsourcing, it too a Judge's gavel to abrogate our CBA to permit outsourcing, which the IAM never negotiated nor agreed too.
 
Guess you dont know the IAM won a $400 million grievance against US for outsourcing 10 Airbus narrowbody planes to ST MAE?
 
I have a copy of the Arbitration Award if you would like to see it, PM me an e-mail address.
 
You truly have no idea of what transpired in chapter 11 at US, nor the gains made in the Transition Agreement, with the HP/US Merger.
 
So for once will you actually comprehend what happened?

as have have asked you 100 times before, you keep running back to "well this happened in BK" 
 
What about before BK? you guys still sent out more work than anyone in the industry. 
How about after BK? 
 
Keep riding that "in BK train" all you want to ride it, but guess what? "after BK and a strike and NW going to a hell of a lot more outsourcing than you did in both BK combined" Delta has been bringing work in-house. Delta has not gotten remotely close to the level of outsourcing at US. Delta has been bringing in work and opening stations. 

 

[700UW]

Wrong again about outsourcing at US. Only stuff sent out was engine overhaul except the Jt8 and the tays, and a few components.

It took a judge to abrogate our CBA to permit US to outsource in mass.

Geez your a broken record.

The ACA has zero to do with health insurance at the airlines.

Why does PMUS have Cadillac plans that cover way more and is way cheaper than DL or AA's insurance?

And DL, AA and US are self-insured.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

 

[topDawg]

Wrong again about outsourcing at US. Only stuff sent out was engine overhaul except the Jt8 and the tays, and a few components.

It took a judge to abrogate our CBA to permit US to outsource in mass.

Geez your a broken record.

So again, engines are stupid. 
 
Why don't you ask me how many engines Delta sent out in the 90s? I'll give you a hint, it starts with zer.........
you lose when you start out Only stuff that was outsourced was thousands of jobs........
 

The ACA has zero to do with health insurance at the airlines.

Why does PMUS have Cadillac plans that cover way more and is way cheaper than DL or AA's insurance?

And DL, AA and US are self-insured.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

 
ACA isn't causing health care costs to go through the roof causing companies all over the US to dump insurance or cause its insurance coast to rise. 
 
IIRC Delta said it's cost(ie that they pay) went up something 1 Billion in 2015. It must be the work force getting younger that is causing that. 
 
 
Oh and why does US have better plans? Well for starters why don't you look at pay, profit sharing and outsourcing %s between DL and US. Math, it seems to be hard for unions but not so much for others. 

 

[WeAAsles]

I bet you are tossing typical pro-union crap and don't know what you are talking about. I know of quite a few people who should have been fired and were given more than 1 chance. 
 
I know of more than that. I have seen Delta give people chances, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, chances on issues that they shouldn't have. 
 

My bad Dawg. Maybe I should have been specific to the group I work in, Fleet. You're a part of a more skilled craft that the company's invest quite a bit more financially into each individual. So yes I can see people in your group coming back far more often then mine.  I believe Kev did say that he's never seen anyone come back who was walked off on the ramp?

Does DL ramp get 2nd 3rd and 4th chances? But in fairness I have seen you write that the ramp needs representation. And I've never spoken for what Maintenance at DL needs or doesn't need.

 

[townpete]

Wrong again about outsourcing at US. Only stuff sent out was engine overhaul except the Jt8 and the tays, and a few components.
It took a judge to abrogate our CBA to permit US to outsource in mass.
Geez your a broken record.
The ACA has zero to do with health insurance at the airlines.
Why does PMUS have Cadillac plans that cover way more and is way cheaper than DL or AA's insurance?
And DL, AA and US are self-insured.
Don't let the facts get in your way.

That's a lie and you probably don't know it.

The "self insurance loophole" is only for small companies with small amount of employees (and getting smaller). Delta does have to comply provision within the ACA.

 

[southwind]

Dont put words into my mouth.
 
I dont advocate nor never supported outsourcing, my former classification was totally outsourced except for 50 jobs in the hangar in PIT and CLT, all line Utility was gone, so tell me why would I support outsourcing my own job?
 
You seem like a pretty smart guy, but why cant you grasp the fact the IAM and US couldnt reach an agreement in bankruptcy part two and out CBA was abrogated.
 
Do you know why we couldnt reach a deal?
 
Because they wanted to outsource and layoff 46% of the maintenance workforce and terminate our pension.
 
The IAM never agreed with the company and never agreed to outsourcing, it too a Judge's gavel to abrogate our CBA to permit outsourcing, which the IAM never negotiated nor agreed too.
 
Guess you dont know the IAM won a $400 million grievance against US for outsourcing 10 Airbus narrowbody planes to ST MAE?
 
I have a copy of the Arbitration Award if you would like to see it, PM me an e-mail address.
 
You truly have no idea of what transpired in chapter 11 at US, nor the gains made in the Transition Agreement, with the HP/US Merger.
 
So for once will you actually comprehend what happened?

And how much of that $400 million was given the the laid off workers and how much did the IAM put in their coffers?

 

[southwind]

Wrong again about outsourcing at US. Only stuff sent out was engine overhaul except the Jt8 and the tays, and a few components.
It took a judge to abrogate our CBA to permit US to outsource in mass.
Geez your a broken record.
The ACA has zero to do with health insurance at the airlines.
Why does PMUS have Cadillac plans that cover way more and is way cheaper than DL or AA's insurance?
And DL, AA and US are self-insured.
Don't let the facts get in your way.

The ACA has EVERYTHING to do with rising insurance rates EVERYWHERE, including AIRLINES with so-called "CADILLAC PLANS"!

Just who the hell do you think is paying tab for ObamaCare, for the peeps getting subsidies?

 

[topDawg]

My bad Dawg. Maybe I should have been specific to the group I work in, Fleet. You're a part of a more skilled craft that the company's invest quite a bit more financially into each individual. So yes I can see people in your group coming back far more often then mine.  I believe Kev did say that he's never seen anyone come back who was walked off on the ramp?

Does DL ramp get 2nd 3rd and 4th chances? But in fairness I have seen you write that the ramp needs representation. And I've never spoken for what Maintenance at DL needs or doesn't need.

Ah I see you asked southwind I thought. (he is TechOps too) 
 
I couldn't tell you on the ramp. I don't really know anyone on the ramp. 
 
But yes, If i were on the ramp I would be trying to get a union in. I feel like Above wing, FAs and TechOps probably doesn't need a union. Ramp is just all over the place in everything. Policy is all over the place, outsourcing is all over the place, Ready reserve is all over the place.
 
I posted a list one time of all the stations DL would have to make mainline ramp (and this was pre-717 build up) if they had the northwest scope, it was a ton of stations.
But the fact the stations like MIA, RDU, CLT, MCI, SAN and some others are DGS is crazy.   

 

[topDawg]

The ACA has EVERYTHING to do with rising insurance rates EVERYWHERE, including AIRLINES with so-called "CADILLAC PLANS"!

Just who the hell do you think is paying tab for ObamaCare, for the peeps getting subsidies?

its free southwind, everything the government gives to people is free. That is how they can keep giving more and more free stuff. 
 
or maybe its them taxing the absolute s**t out of people like me and you, and of course China.   

 

[WeAAsles]

Ah I see you asked southwind I thought. (he is TechOps too) 
 
I couldn't tell you on the ramp. I don't really know anyone on the ramp. 
 
But yes, If i were on the ramp I would be trying to get a union in. I feel like Above wing, FAs and TechOps probably doesn't need a union. Ramp is just all over the place in everything. Policy is all over the place, outsourcing is all over the place, Ready reserve is all over the place.
 
I posted a list one time of all the stations DL would have to make mainline ramp (and this was pre-717 build up) if they had the northwest scope, it was a ton of stations.
But the fact the stations like MIA, RDU, CLT, MCI, SAN and some others are DGS is crazy.   

I did ask Southwind. But only because he is the voice of anti labor when it comes to anybody and anyone it seems. From all the things I read and what they put up as proof on that FA FB page I think maybe they do need a Union. Or a CBA at least since a few on here are so anti established name labor group. They have pointed out a lot of bad chit that happens to them. And they're not anti company although the opposition really wants to paint them in that light.

As far as ramp there, thanks again for your opinion. And before someone chimes in why I have an interest? Well because I here at AA have to deal with the company bringing up how things work at DL without a contract. Parker even said it in today's earnings call. So yes ultimately it affects me if the airline I work for has to compete with that labor cost advantage. And have it thrown in our face by the AA negotiators.

I also think Dawg that a lot of people in other groups don't want ramp to have a Union because they would have zero problem if all of them make only $12.00 with no benefits. Class warfare. And it's a place where the company can go to cut some costs and maybe pass those savings on to someone else in another group?  

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW I don't think Unions have a place in any small family owned business personally. So I do have an opinion where Unions serve the best benefit.