Delta to give all domestic employees raises in 2012

[2BlacknBlue]

This f/a story has been addressed here on this board fully. The facts are that it was a dispute regarding re testing after a false positive. Since the first sample was`ruled as fake there was no reason to test the other sample therefore she was unable to protest the results. Delta only followed the letter of the law....something that i disagree with in this case.Thankfully the final outcome was reversed and she got her job back. The testing company was removed because THEY screwed up.

Why was the outcome reversed?

 

[southwind]

It is. As far as DL/NW goes, I'm living proof, and I'm only one of hundreds. If that's not good enough for you, as I've already noted, it's a matter of public record. Happy Googling...

I think what Kev is trying to say here is that it is up to "you" to prove "His" point ! :blink:

 

[metopower]

Why was the outcome reversed?
[/quote
DALPA raised so much pressure against Delta legal and the FAA that the company that tested the samples was found to be incompetent. There were many problems with how they conducted the testing. When the investigation was finished more then one test was reversed. It all had to go with the requirement that a ruled "tampered" sample could not be retested. The company "could" have tested it but Delta legal department did not want to open the door to retest people long since released for test failures. As it turned out never heard of anyone returning other then the one f/a and pilot.

 

[700UW]

Gee the resident DL Cheerleader is silent, he has posted on other threads since I poised the question to him.

Anyone else hear the birds chirping?

 

[signals]

DALPA raised so much pressure against Delta legal and the FAA that the company that tested the samples was found to be incompetent. There were many problems with how they conducted the testing. When the investigation was finished more then one test was reversed. It all had to go with the requirement that a ruled "tampered" sample could not be retested. The company "could" have tested it but Delta legal department did not want to open the door to retest people long since released for test failures. As it turned out never heard of anyone returning other then the one f/a and pilot.

Poor, clueless me. Is DALPA the pilot union at Delta the Divine? If so, this makes the non-union opinion, null and void
So when the non-union cadets get into a jam, the union big boys come and save the ingrates

 

[WorldTraveler]

We received additional facts which somehow got left out.. that is all I have ever asked for.
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I have no doubt that unions including ALPA helped to bring this issue to light and could do it more effectively through the communications channels they have - but it still doesn't say that they fixed the problem - the government did. Further, it has been noted that DL - and whatever airlines - did what they had to do under the then existing law.
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But more significantly this is a 10-11 year old story - and involves circumstances that few employees obviously considered in choosing whethey they needed representation at DL.
The point remains that it is the labor unions for non-pilots that need to demonstrate the value they can add; and for now, Delta employees - union and non-union are examples of how working with rather than against the company results in benefits for all... a solid business plan and a cooperative work environment does far more to ensure employee success than any other factor.

 

[Kev3188]

The point remains that it is the labor unions for non-pilots that need to demonstrate the value they can add; and for now, Delta employees - union and non-union are examples of how working with rather than against the company results in benefits for all... a solid business plan and a cooperative work environment does far more to ensure employee success than any other factor.

You seem to be implying that being represented precludes labor and capital working together.

I wondered how long it would be before that myth was trotted out by someone...

 

[700UW]

Still waiting for you to find out about what happened to the US Airways Non-union vs Union employees in 1992 and you might actually see what a greater protection being unionized is.

Still waiting, tick tock, tick tock.

 

[WorldTraveler]

You seem to be implying that being represented precludes labor and capital working together.

I wondered how long it would be before that myth was trotted out by someone...

I didn't say that at all... in fact, I have said several times that if a company has a solid business plan and cooperative labor, then it really doesn't matter whether labor is unionized or not. We have ample evidence of successful companies with good labor-mgmt relations among both non-union, partially unionized, and completely non-union environments. Most if not all are successful BUSINESSES - which means their success comes in part by treating their employees well who in turn help the company make money - which is what businesses exist to do.

We do have ample examples of poorly run, money losing businesses that choose to blame everyone for their problems yet seem unable to fix the problems... and labor has no demonstrated success in turning that type of business around - or in providing long-term success for the employees.
And 700 I would LOVE to hear the evidence you have of how US screwed the non-union people because they could. Not sure if it has anything to do w/ former Piedmont people but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on PI's labor-mgmt relations.

Without even hearing your story I can tell you that companies get labor relations in the same vein as how they treat their employees.
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There is still ample evidence that there are employees in the heavily unionized airline industry that have chosen NOT to be represented by labor unions which would mean that that employees don't believe the labor-mgmt relationship is that bad or if it is that mgmt can do anything about it.

 

[700UW]

The US/PI merger was completed in 1989.

IN 1992, US pilots took concessions then the company unilaterally eliminated this from the Fleet, Customer Service and all non-union positions:

Pension Frozen
Vacation time eliminated
Sick time eliminated
OJI time eliminated
40% of the fleet and csa's downgraded to part time, thereby increasing their medical insurance to $300 per month.
Hours cut from 40 to a 25 per week.
Catering eliminated except at hubs.
Cargo and mail outsourced
Express work outsourced.
Massive layoffs system-wide (Had to have 15 years with the company to hold full-time in CLT)
Paycuts
Cities closed and/or outsourced.

Union workers negotiated concessions, in maintenance we went on strike for five days as we could not reach an agreement, but we had no layoffs. And I had three years with the company and I was still employed full-time and non-union fleet and csa, massive layoffs.

Unionized workers got 200% back in return on per hourly wage concessions over a two year period after the one year in concessions and Stock options at $15 per share.

Big difference, I kept my pension, work rules and benefits, non-union got hammered.

 

[signals]

.
But more significantly this is a 10-11 year old story - and involves circumstances that few employees obviously considered in choosing whethey they needed representation at DL.
The point remains that it is the labor unions for non-pilots that need to demonstrate the value they can add; and for now, Delta employees - union and non-union are examples of how working with rather than against the company results in benefits for all... a solid business plan and a cooperative work environment does far more to ensure employee success than any other factor.

It's not about representation. How can Delta union and non-union be working together when the non-union rips apart union.

Delta pilots that pay some obsvure big-mouth, mafioso stereotype dues are bailing the behinds of freeloaders! Which we call scabs

Twist the Word all you want, WT, but I call it like I see it...
...scab protection brought to you by union labor

...and union money$$$

...and union time

...and union sweat

...and union blood

...and union tears

Don't tread on union labor, freeloaders

 

[WorldTraveler]

The US/PI merger was completed in 1989.

IN 1992, US pilots took concessions then the company unilaterally eliminated this from the Fleet, Customer Service and all non-union positions:

Pension Frozen
Vacation time eliminated
Sick time eliminated
OJI time eliminated
40% of the fleet and csa's downgraded to part time, thereby increasing their medical insurance to $300 per month.
Hours cut from 40 to a 25 per week.
Catering eliminated except at hubs.
Cargo and mail outsourced
Express work outsourced.
Massive layoffs system-wide (Had to have 15 years with the company to hold full-time in CLT)
Paycuts
Cities closed and/or outsourced.

Union workers negotiated concessions, in maintenance we went on strike for five days as we could not reach an agreement, but we had no layoffs. And I had three years with the company and I was still employed full-time and non-union fleet and csa, massive layoffs.

Unionized workers got 200% back in return on per hourly wage concessions over a two year period after the one year in concessions and Stock options at $15 per share.

Big difference, I kept my pension, work rules and benefits, non-union got hammered.

I appreciate you sharing this perspective... I don't remember the details of the US/PI merger but know that it wasn't exactly a success.
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Knowing those details, I can say w/ clarity that US now has the labor relations and the entrenched unions it asked for.... they screwed their people because of a poorly executed merger and took it out where it was easiest to do so.
.
While this example tells why US people need a union, it doesn't tell why DL people should... because DL has a better than average track record with mergers, transactions which in the airline industry inevitably produce excess people and which never work out as well as stated in the promotional materials sent out w/ the merger announcements.
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The pilots at DL know full well that the non-contract employees receive similar treatment - it is rare that DL gives the pilots a raise w/o giving one to non-contract employees, benefits changes usually mirror each other as well... the timing of changes for pilot and non-pilot personnel usually is not correlated but over time things usually catch up.
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Whether it is free loading or the fact that DL mgmt understands that they have to treat both groups equally well or get the unions that other airlines have, the end result is the same... and all of the large DL non-pilot labor groups have consistently chosen not to be union represented.... as have B6 and VX labor groups as well. Apparently in each case, those people do not believe they have enough to gain to justify the change.

 

[700UW]

Ask the Pan Am people and you will hear different, or about DL shutting down DFW and Leadership 7.5

 

[WorldTraveler]

Ask the Pan Am people and you will hear different, or about DL shutting down DFW and Leadership 7.5

The Pan Am people were part of an asset acquisition... DL took far more PA people than did UA and those PA people were integrated into DL. Employees who came to DL through mergers were treated the same as DL people except for pensions which differed with each carrier.
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The assets from DFW were redeployed elsewhere on the system.... that is the nature of the airline industry. Most employees did have the opportunity to transfer elsewhere.
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7.5 was in the same era as the PI merger and was DL's biggest black mark with labor, to be sure... it is precisely why people like Kev worry about how DL will treat small stations. But as Kev has also noted, it now costs as much if not more to hire contract employees as it does ready reserve employees, which do constitute a significant number of employees in many small stations. Small stations and RR staffing is a good example of how DL has the flexibility to change to new models but still protect the jobs of existing employees... my guess remains that DL will leave small stations acquired from NW staffed the way they are... because they have the tools to keep costs down and many small stations are very efficient... many of the former NW small stations at those airports have the most full service station operations and DL uses that in gaining ground handling contracts.
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Once again the standard for comparison is how well DL employees have done relative to their peers... all of these types of events have happened at other airlines. The question is whether DL employees over all then or now could have done better with unions. DL employees apparently didn't think so.

 

[700UW]

And as Kev has pointed out to you and you ignore it, is that PMNW fared better in Chapter 11 than their PMDL counterparts, now those are facts.

So where was the DL mtc base redeployed, oh wait Hong Kong and may other vendors around the world.

Where did those employees end up?