Delta to give all domestic employees raises in 2012

[WorldTraveler]

And as Kev has pointed out to you and you ignore it, is that PMNW fared better in Chapter 11 than their PMDL counterparts, now those are facts.

So where was the DL mtc base redeployed, oh wait Hong Kong and may other vendors around the world.

Where did those employees end up?

you are kidding, right? If we were talking about other employee groups, then there might be some basis for discussion... but MTC, really? You do remember that NW mgmt put 'em all out on the street. So, I'm a little confused about how you could argue that they fared better than other groups.
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And others can jump in but much of DL's maintenance capabilities were further concentrated in ATL - you know in that facility where DL now operates one of the world's largest maintenance INSOURCING operations. I knew you and others don't agree that outsourcing anything makes more sense but DL has taken a strategy to outsource what makes sense and insource what has the potential to make money for the company - and they have done that to maintain more maintenance jobs than any of their BK peers.
And no one in their right mind can really believe that AA is going to come out of BK with all of its current maintenance facilities or current in-house maintenance.
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As for other employee groups, I'd love to see the big picture numbers of how unionized carrier employees fared compared to DL as a non-union carrier for those same work groups. You see, I really don't have the breakdown of employee cuts by group vs. original staffing pre-BK and that is the only way to know whether unionized employees -any of them - actually did fare better. Pay scales and number of locations "saved" is part of the picture but it doesn't answer the question of total employment and compensation comparisons.
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Once again the question is how well DL employees fared compared to their peers.... and by the way, I don't vote. I'm just trying to help you and others understand why DL non-pilot employees have consistently chosen not to further unionize.
My suggestion is that you come up with arguments that show how the unions have done better than what other non-union employees got.
I'll be happy to keep pressure testing your arguments, though. You can consider me as a friend who is trying to help you get what you want... if you can get the argument past me,

 

[700UW]

The mechanics at NW were all ready on strike before NW filed Chapter 11.

I am talking about comparing apples to apples, ALL unionized PMNW made out better in Chapter 11 than PMDL employees. Kev said this to you may times and posted facts to prove you wrong.

But if its not DL good, then you wont acknowledge it, everyone on the board knows this all ready.

Too bad you cant accept the truth for what it is.

Show me what voice non-union employees had in the chapter 11 process compared to the unionized employees.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The mechanics at NW were all ready on strike before NW filed Chapter 11.

I am talking about comparing apples to apples, ALL unionized PMNW made out better in Chapter 11 than PMDL employees. Kev said this to you may times and posted facts to prove you wrong.

But if its not DL good, then you wont acknowledge it, everyone on the board knows this all ready.

Too bad you cant accept the truth for what it is.

Show me what voice non-union employees had in the chapter 11 process compared to the unionized employees.

of course... because NW mgmt already fired all those mechanics means they fared so much better in BK?
you do realize that 7.5 was about a decade before DL filed for BK, right? Same with the DFW hub closure?
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If the non-union employees fared as good as or better than their unionized peers, then what was the advantage of the extra voice? And what did the non-union people lose by not having one?
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I actually AM waiting from any kind of data showing that ANY airlines' unionized employees fared better than DL's employees in BK.... you, Kev, or anyone else is welcome to post it.
And then when you show it to me, you will have made your case to show to the DL employees who will vote should there be another representation election.
Remember, I'm here to help.
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And for now, it remains that DL handed out pay raises to non-contract employees based on what DL chose to do ... it wasn't negotiated and there was no other voice.
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You do realize that perhaps it is precisely because of the negotiation process that companies give employees only what they can negotiate, even if the company is capable of paying more. You do realize that, don't you? And when the evidence overwhelmingly says that airline unions have very little power to push rates up, the amount that DL or B6 or VX has to pay its employees above what the unions can negotiate is actually not a whole lot.


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I hope it isn't lost on you that there are several reasons why NW's employees other than mechanics fared as well as they did in BK, even if it wasn't any better than their non-union peers
1. NW obtained such a large amount of labor cost savings from the mechanics that they had some flexibility with the other groups.
2. NW already had the highest labor productivity in the network carrier industry going into 9/11, as I have noted before. In fact, it was only DL's growth spurt in the mid 2000s (during and post BK) and UA's later in the decade that allowed them to meet the productivity that NW labor had ALREADY given before 9/11.
3. NW and DL were clearly talking and DL apparently expected NW to bring its labor costs in line with DL's but not lower. You do realize that DL and NW, as of the time of the merger, had the EXACT SAME labor CASM, don't you?

We must wrap it up for tonite or people will be posting that we have no life and should get off the computer... even though I had a very enjoyable 20km bike ride with my family and still managed to spend time with friends today - after doing so last night to ring in the New Year.
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Hope yours is great....

 

[metopower]

Poor, clueless me. Is DALPA the pilot union at Delta the Divine? If so, this makes the non-union opinion, null and void
So when the non-union cadets get into a jam, the union big boys come and save the ingrates

No Divine. No cadets no ingrates. Just a flawed FAA policy that went unchallenged until Dalpa was involved. If that proves your argument then good for you. However that was not how it was taken here.Some AFA supporters tried using that argument years ago at the time.just didn't hold the water you re trying to give it..as I said before ..that management team (fired..mullen et al)"couldn't breath without a lawyer present. Even envolved themselves in abort procedures if you can believe that.I doubt if the same thing had happened with any other team in place they would have acted the same. Having said that DL is different then other places and this is my third airline....there is a reason that there is no unions here.. People choose to work here and they like working here.If they are mistreated here I am sure unions will be welcome. It's lke a family. You can't understand the dynamics until you have lived in the house for a while.Just like I can't understand the east vs west thing at usair

 

[signals]

No Divine. No cadets no ingrates. Just a flawed FAA policy that went unchallenged until Dalpa was involved. If that proves your argument then good for you. However that was not how it was taken here.Some AFA supporters tried using that argument years ago at the time.just didn't hold the water you re trying to give it..as I said before ..that management team (fired..mullen et al)"couldn't breath without a lawyer present. Even envolved themselves in abort procedures if you can believe that.I doubt if the same thing had happened with any other team in place they would have acted the same. Having said that DL is different then other places and this is my third airline....there is a reason that there is no unions here.. People choose to work here and the like working here.If they are mistreated here I am sure unions will be welcome. It's lke a family. You can't understand the dynamics until you have lived in the house for a while.Just like I can't understand the east vs west thing at usair

Unlike some, I can understand the non-union mentality. Been there, done that. I can't understand why the non-union side talks about the union evils as a whole and the union side keeps silent???

My mentality is if you want to knock a specific union(ALPA vs. USAPA) I'm OK with it. But knocking unions as a whole because your nose is up management's butt, is unacceptable to me.

 

[Kev3188]

Employees who came to DL through mergers were treated the same as DL people except for pensions which differed with each carrier.

PA people weren't treated equally; they lost some of their seniority.

7.5 was in the same era as the PI merger and was DL's biggest black mark with labor, to be sure... it is precisely why people like Kev worry about how DL will treat small stations. But as Kev has also noted, it now costs as much if not more to hire contract employees as it does ready reserve employees, which do constitute a significant number of employees in many small stations. Small stations and RR staffing is a good example of how DL has the flexibility to change to new models but still protect the jobs of existing employees... my guess remains that DL will leave small stations acquired from NW staffed the way they are... because they have the tools to keep costs down and many small stations are very efficient... many of the former NW small stations at those airports have the most full service station operations and DL uses that in gaining ground handling contracts.

There is no protection anymore, and benefitted positions are disappearing as I write this. The difference this go 'round is that it's death by a thousand cuts, and not being done in one fell swoop, like during 7.5.

you are kidding, right? If we were talking about other employee groups, then there might be some basis for discussion... but MTC, really? You do remember that NW mgmt put 'em all out on the street.

Many of whom are now at DL.

As for other employee groups, I'd love to see the big picture numbers of how unionized carrier employees fared compared to DL as a non-union carrier for those same work groups.

The info is out there, and has been shared many, many times.

And for now, it remains that DL handed out pay raises to non-contract employees based on what DL chose to do ... it wasn't negotiated and there was no other voice.

No, they've said they "plan" to do so come July. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. They also haven't said what the increase will be.

1. NW obtained such a large amount of labor cost savings from the mechanics that they had some flexibility with the other groups.
2. NW already had the highest labor productivity in the network carrier industry going into 9/11, as I have noted before. In fact, it was only DL's growth spurt in the mid 2000s (during and post BK) and UA's later in the decade that allowed them to meet the productivity that NW labor had ALREADY given before 9/11.

Which again proves that labor & mgmt. can work together, and also destroys the myth DL continues to perpetuate that with representation all that somehow vanishes.

.there is a reason that there is no unions here..

Well, except for DALPA & PAFCA...

People choose to work here and they like working here.

Of course people choose to- and may like- working here. I don't buy into the idea that if you want to change things for the better that somehow you're against the place. Again, that "us against them" concept is a message the company constantly hammers home to employees.

Unlike some, I can understand the non-union mentality. Been there, done that. I can't understand why the non-union side talks about the union evils as a whole and the union side keeps silent???

They don't; they're just outspent & thus out messaged by corporate interests.

 

[BABABOOY]

When will people understand PAN AM was NOT a merger!

 

[700UW]

Great post Kevin,

Lets see how SM WT will reply, probably ignore the facts and deflect and evade.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Well said, Meto. But it only takes looking at the results of the representation campaign to realize that DL DOES have a unique culture, that DL employees understand that, and that most DL employees do not believe that unions can add anything they don’t already have. Yes, Kev, DL used its money to help sway the vote –that is exactly the point… DL paid its employees as good as or better than the competition and thus they saw little benefit coming from labor. That has ALWAYS been DL’s tactic – pay your employees as good as or better, treat them as good as or better, and expect as much or more from them – and they will remain loyal to you. While other airline employees get what their unions can negotiate, DL has paid as good as or better than the competition. DL has used that strategy for decades. More recently in the airline industry, B6, CO, and WN among others have used it – and all have had fiercely loyal employees. The fact that DL mgmt today (even if some are imported from elsewhere) have rediscovered what helped make DL successful in the pre-deregulation era speaks volumes about DL’s intention to return to the industry leadership positions it help in deregulation – some of the best customer service, operations, and financials.
It is precisely because labor hasn’t recognized that DL DOES have a valid and successful labor-mgmt strategy that the labor movement has been unable to counte that we continue to have this discussion – and why DL employees. When the labor movement can provide something better than what DL employees can obtain through a direct mgmt relationship, then perhaps DL employees will start voting for labor – and that will also be true for B6 etc as well. I’m sorry if that is direct and to the point but that is the harsh reality that the labor movement and its supporters have to face… I am simply speaking the truth that should be obvious but which many seem to not want to accept. There is nothing broken about DL’s labor-mgmt relationship relative to its peers and as long as labor tries to argue that there is, they will fail in their attempts to further unionize DL – and other carriers as well.

In fact, Kev, I have long argued that labor and mgmt can work together unionized or not. WN is a case in point where labor and mgmt have both figured out how to work together to the mutual good of each side and still be unionized; B6 is on the non-union side. DL is obviously in the middle – but the fact that DL’s pilot-mgmt relationship has been far less confrontational at other airlines has directly translated into the flexibility DL has needed to change its business strategy and that is exactly what the company has needed to succeed. DL pilots gave up a lot with respect to RJ scope but they also gained a whole lot of long-haul flying which is more valuable to pilots in the long run; while other airlines and their pilots argued for years as to how to staff those aircraft, DL staffed them with the most generous formula among US carriers and the pilots have given DL unparalleled flexibility to expand where int’l opportunities have presented themselves.
I have seen lots of anecdotal evidence and cases specific to a subset of labor groups that labor has benefitted individuals better than what no representation could have done, but I have not seen any large scale evidence that labor has done a better job at preserving jobs or increasing/preserving pay for unionized personnel. The evidence I have seen validates why a specific group of people within a work group (such as small station personnel) would vote for a union, but I have yet to see evidence that demonstrates the benefit for the entire group – such as all mechanics or all ramp personnel – and that is why the majority of the people have not been convinced that labor can do more for them than the company has done – again relative to its peers.

The airline industry has been and will continue to be full of change – and that will mean that there will be a continual focus on becoming more efficient – and that may well mean that jobs that were once secure are no longer as secure. Unions can’t perpetually preserve jobs that are no longer cost effective although unions do a very good job at dragging out the process – and in so doing financially weakening the company. Non-union airline employees (as well as in other industries) understand that and recognize that if change has to be made, you make it as fairly as possible and move on. Because change is such an important part of the airline industry, airlines that want to keep from further unionization efforts know that they must treat their employees at least as good as or better than their peers who have unions.
It is simply a calculus for the employees and for the companies about whether the employees are better off with or without unions… and the evidence continues to say that airline employee groups that are non-union don’t see any more value coming from unions than their current arrangement with management.
If labor can accept that being non-union is a valid and successful strategy for carriers and build a better representation model that adds more value, then they might be able to add further union members.

Wisdom would recognize that I am simply speaking the reality which is obvious doesn't make me the problem - it makes me someone who is willing to speak what others don't want to hear.

 

[700UW]

Just like I called it, evaded the whole post.

And DL didnt use its money to give raises and benefits to the employees, they spent their dollars with Ford and Harrison, an anti-union law firm.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[tech2101]

Just like I called it, evaded the whole post.

And DL didnt use its money to give raises and benefits to the employees, they spent their dollars with Ford and Harrison, an anti-union law firm.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

There is one reason DL has paid its employees close to industry standard: Because the unions have negotiated those salaries at other carriers. They (DL) do not do this because they love to make less profit by paying higher salaries....

 

[NYCDelta]

PA people weren't treated equally; they lost some of their seniority.

Actually, Pan Am F/A's fared pretty well when they were hired at DL. Remember, they came to us when DL acquired certain Pan Am assets-it was certainly not a merger. DL protected the top 3,000 then slotted Pan Am F/A's. I'm not sure they received the same deal at UAL.

Look, everyone is free to work (or not work) anywhere they want. There are many kool-aid drinkers at DL. It is not the utopia they seem to think it is. DL is not perfect, they have made mistakes. I left right before the merger, however, my better half is a PMNW pilot. He lost seniority. He thinks the technology is antiquated. He hates the kool-aid. But at the end of the day, he thinks it's a better work environment than he ever saw in his 12 years at NW.
And I can only speak from experience, but after working for 5 airlines, I too saw a difference. I'm not saying the atmosphere at UAL was toxic-but there is a reason I jumped at the chance for a voluntary furlough. I'm lucky because I have a back-up (RN); many do not. I'm thankful that I can now enjoy my love of airlines from a distance (like being on this board while sipping coffee on my couch)

To argue over who did better during a BK is silly-nobody does well during a BK.

 

[NYCDelta]

There is one reason DL has paid its employees close to industry standard: Because the unions have negotiated those salaries at other carriers. They (DL) do not do this because they love to make less profit by paying higher salaries....

But that is not unique to DL (or to airlines for that matter). Our raises every year (non-union) are based on keeping us competitive with area hospitals (union and non-union). DL's pay is based on other legacy's (who happen to be unionized). If JetBlue and Virgin America become large enough, I'm sure DL would use them as part of their peer group, and they are non-union (for now).
I don't think anybody (except maybe WT) believes that companies give raises because they want to spend more money. They need to remain competitive with others to get (and keep) talent.

 

[WorldTraveler]

well said, NYC.
The problem is that some people want to try and paint anyone who recognizes that a company succeeds as a mgmt brown noser when the reality is that the voting results speak for themselves... if they can legitimately call more than 50K people blindly loyal to mgmt or Koolaid drinkers, then it would seem the definition of reality some want to use is quite a bit jaded.
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UAL learned a great deal from their very toxic relations with employees (interestingly who also ran the company) during the ESOP period. I fully expect they will figure out how to peacefully integrate the CO people and operations relatively smoothly and UA will be stronger because of the merger.... yet some people will continue to argue that DL has done something wrong by successfully integrating NW people and maintaining DL's previous culture even though UA will do the same thing now - just w/ unions.
Remember that AA benefitted from UA's labor problems in BK and now the tables are turned... it has been decades since AA and UA, long standing rivals that they are, have been on the same page at the same time. UA knows full well what they can gain from AA's problems right now and aren't about to lose the opportunity.
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It really doesn't matter whether you compare what happened in BK or what is happening now or what happened pre-deregulation... DL employees have fared as good as or better than their network carrier peers.... and once again if they didn't then DL employees don't believe that unions could have helped their cause. And making a claim as to who fared better or worse is absolutely crucial in determining whether a union could have helped DL employees in the past and whether they could now.
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And yes DL employees - PMDL and PMNW have received pay raises over the past year or will in the coming weeks as a result of the termination of the representation process - and there are additional raises coming in 2012, for the pilots first because that was agreed to in the post-merger pilot contract (remember DL's concept that we will pay you to play nicely together) and then for non-contract employees when the integration process is completed (based on the same concept).
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You, 700, are the one that can't seem to understand that DL employees don't care what DL spends its money on or what motives the company uses to give pay raises as long as the employees that get as much or more as they could have received with a union.
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And you are the one that is evading the reality that the unions are the ones that have failed to recognize that the unions are the ones that are in decline... and they lost tens of thousands of union jobs with the DL/NW merger, and the chances are very high that if DL goes shopping again, they will lose again, esp. since any domestic airline that DL buys now will be small enough that the size limits for representation votes won't even be triggered.
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I doubt if we are going to make any further progress in coming to any understanding... but reality would dictate that the unions are the ones who need to figure out how to adapt to today's business environment. For now, DL employees as well as those at B6 and elsewhere don't see value in what the unions can offer - and the real question is whether the labor movement will move into obscurity in the US or whether labor will figure out how to adapt and win.

This would seem like as good of a time to start as any.
And I can assure you that I will be one of the first to cheer labor's ability to redefine itself if it can turn itself and its slide around.

 

[tech2101]

They need to remain competitive with others to get (and keep) talent.

Keeping quality talent is hard work, even in this economy. It is harder to do that while trying to pry the weak employee loose in a union environment. A manager must work harder to keep the right people on the right bus, heading in the right direction.