DL to suspend SEA-HND Flights

[eolesen]

PA started up DTW-LHR in 1987 with PA 54, using a 310 -- that was moved to DTW-LGW (still with a 310) in 1991 after they moved out of LHR.

DL continued the flight as DL 24, keeping the 310, but changed over to the L15 in 1993 & 1994. It was discontinued after 1994.

Perhaps the load factors DL was getting out of DTW didn't cause a whole lot of westbound diversions.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL sold the route to NW.

the problem with DTW-London for anyone other than NW is it isn't a large enough market w/o a hub on one end of the route.

correct me if I am wrong, but BA doesn't even serve DTW today.

speaking of London, apparently VS has confirmed that it is dismantling Little Red but as far from now as a year.

VS will gain some slots that could be deployed on its TATL system which for now is what is making money. Asia and Africa flying that compete with the ME3 are not.

It is very likely that slots freed up from Lil Red will be used to grow the DL-VS joint venture.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

speaking of London, apparently VS has confirmed that it is dismantling Little Red but as far from now as a year.

VS will gain some slots that could be deployed on its TATL system which for now is what is making money. Asia and Africa flying that compete with the ME3 are not.

It is very likely that slots freed up from Lil Red will be used to grow the DL-VS joint venture.

 
Somewhere I read/heard that the load factors on those Little Red flights was ~40%.
 
Ofcourse, Branson blamed BA and gov regulators for this failure:  http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/06/virgin-atlantic-scraps-little-red-service
 
Branson added: “When the competition authorities allowed British Airways to take over British Midland and all of its slots, we feared there was little we could do to challenge BA’s huge domestic and European network built through decades of dominance. To remedy this, we were offered a meagre package of slots with a number of constraints on how to use them and we decided to lease a few planes on a short term basis to give it our best shot. The odds were stacked against us and sadly we just couldn’t attract enough corporate business on these routes.”
 
 
Also, I thought that those 12 out of the 14 slots that VS got from BA (as a condition of the BMI purchase) were slots for domestic service only?

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't know the full requirements but I believe there were some provisions for them to be converted for other use after a certain time.

IT is a separate issue from SEA-HND and DAL but does highlight the legal twists involved in gaining access to high profile and limited access airports.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

speaking of London, apparently VS has confirmed that it is dismantling Little Red but as far from now as a year.


It is very likely that slots freed up from Lil Red will be used to grow the DL-VS joint venture.

 

I don't know the full requirements but I believe there were some provisions for them to be converted for other use after a certain time.
 

 
Hmmmmm. 
 
So on one hand you're all cocky about the DL-VS joint venture growing at LHR but when asked about a possible glitch you admit that you really don't know the details of the conditions (if any) on the LHR slots VS got from BA-BMI transaction.
 
OK, got it!

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, I am saying that I don't know but it would seem that VS is holding onto the service either to fulfill a contractual requirement or to serve the routes long enough to gain the slots.

I'm not saying that AA or WN can't do the same thing in whatever situation they are in but they still have to follow the law.

In the case of SEA-HND, DL believes they face no risk of losing the slot based on the requirements that are in effect at this time.

In the worst case (for DL) the DOT could tell them they have to restart service now or lose the slot.

I doubt they can do that without changing ALL rules regarding route awards.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

no, I am saying that I don't know but it would seem that VS is holding onto the service either to fulfill a contractual requirement or to serve the routes long enough to gain the slots.
 

 
It's a little off topic, but I'm kind of shocked that somebody that claims to have such a vast amount of industry knowledge can claim what you're stating above. 
 
Think about it.
Don't just type for the sake of typing!
 
The UK gov authorities forced BA to give up 14 slot pairs at LHR in order for VS to have the ability to offer domestic service out of LHR (that's what 12 out of the 14 slot pairs were for) only for a limited amount of time and then it is not a problem for VS to discard the domestic service and use the slots as they see fit?  That makes sense to you?

 

[topDawg]

DL sold the route to NW.

the problem with DTW-London for anyone other than NW is it isn't a large enough market w/o a hub on one end of the route.

correct me if I am wrong, but BA doesn't even serve DTW today.

speaking of London, apparently VS has confirmed that it is dismantling Little Red but as far from now as a year.

VS will gain some slots that could be deployed on its TATL system which for now is what is making money. Asia and Africa flying that compete with the ME3 are not.

It is very likely that slots freed up from Lil Red will be used to grow the DL-VS joint venture.

They are only going to get the slots they are using for MAN flights (but these slots were already Virgin's slots. They didn't come from BA). I believe the BA slots could only be used to the EU once the domestic restrictions were over with. (and I am not sure Virgin has even hit that time limit) 
 

 
Somewhere I read/heard that the load factors on those Little Red flights was ~40%.
 
Ofcourse, Branson blamed BA and gov regulators for this failure:  http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/06/virgin-atlantic-scraps-little-red-service
 
Branson added: “When the competition authorities allowed British Airways to take over British Midland and all of its slots, we feared there was little we could do to challenge BA’s huge domestic and European network built through decades of dominance. To remedy this, we were offered a meagre package of slots with a number of constraints on how to use them and we decided to lease a few planes on a short term basis to give it our best shot. The odds were stacked against us and sadly we just couldn’t attract enough corporate business on these routes.”
 
 
Also, I thought that those 12 out of the 14 slots that VS got from BA (as a condition of the BMI purchase) were slots for domestic service only?
 

I think the idea was they would be restricted to domestic flying for a while but could then be used for EU flying after. I don't believe Virgin/Delta can use them for TATL flying however. 
 

you can find the quote if it makes you feel better but I doubt if I said that DL didn't use the 310 on LGW-DTW. Since I flew on that route with a 310, my experience would tend to negate your assertion.

"and DL had routes out of CVG and DTW including to LGW that the 310 could not make."
 
 

PA started up DTW-LHR in 1987 with PA 54, using a 310 -- that was moved to DTW-LGW (still with a 310) in 1991 after they moved out of LHR.

DL continued the flight as DL 24, keeping the 310, but changed over to the L15 in 1993 & 1994. It was discontinued after 1994.

Perhaps the load factors DL was getting out of DTW didn't cause a whole lot of westbound diversions.

oops it was the L15. thanks for the correction. 

 

[MAH4546]

It is very likely that slots freed up from Lil Red will be used to grow the DL-VS joint venture.

 
The slots have to be used intra-Europe, Moscow, Cairo or Saudi Arabia or they return to British Airways.
 
There are some slots VS is using on LHR-MAN that are its own slots, and it can use to expand long-haul. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and even 3 additional longhaul DL/VS routes from LHR is nothing to sneeze at.

and if an A310 couldn't make CLE or DTW to LGW, dawg, how it is that aircraft in any way even remotely comparable to a 767? There isn't a point in the continental US that a 763ER can't make from LGW or LGW.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

and even 3 additional longhaul DL/VS routes from LHR is nothing to sneeze at.

and if an A310 couldn't make CLE or DTW to LGW, dawg, how it is that aircraft in any way even remotely comparable to a 767? There isn't a point in the continental US that a 763ER can't make from LGW or LGW.

 
Ofcourse additional USA-LHR routes for DL/VS is nothing to sneeze at.  But as MAH pointed out, it may not even be possible to do so using the slots left over as a results of Little Red being tango uniform.
 
Too bad you climaxed prematurely at the thought of DL winning at LHR.
 
Moreover, the statement that an A310 cannot make it from CLE or DTW to LGW required a willing suspension of disbelief to make it a reality.

 

[WorldTraveler]

the MAN slots are VS's slots. they can do what they want with them.

the others are potentially not available for any other use.

I didn't say an A310 couldn't make it.

if it couldn't, I wouldn't be here... because I have done it.

Under severe winds, it diverted.

and diversions were a lot more common at JFK.

but we're still talking about flights that are far shorter than what the 763ER can do - which is my point.

The 763ER has been in DL's fleet for decades. I'm not sure the A310 stuck around for even a couple years.... but someone can tell us how long DL put up with them.

 

[700UW]

And DL is pulling back on a lot of Atlantic routes.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL has had seasonal flying to/from Europe for years with the greatest reductions coming in Jan and Feb. AA and UA are just now getting around to implementing the same level of seasonal capacity cuts that DL has done for years.


Year over year, DL's capacity on the N. Atlantic is UP.

for the last month, it was up by 8%.

 

[topDawg]

the MAN slots are VS's slots. they can do what they want with them.

True 
 

the others are potentially not available for any other use.

True
 

I didn't say an A310 couldn't make it.

"and DL had routes out of CVG and DTW including to LGW that the 310 could not make."
 
Now that is exactly what you said. So yes, you did say the 310 couldn't make DTW-LGW. 
 

if it couldn't, I wouldn't be here... because I have done it.

I have also flown on the 310 transatlantic 
a few times. 
 

Under severe winds, it diverted.

Well hell under severe winds a 767 can divert. Hell a 77L can divert. now your adding things. Fact is the 310-300 has about 500-700nm less range than a 767-300ER without winglets. Now that is a nice bit of range, don't get me wrong, but the 310-300 can still hit most of Europe from JFK. 
 

and diversions were a lot more common at JFK.

On shorter routes? 
 
of course when your comparing 1 flight to many flights its clear JFK-310 flights would probably have more diversions. 
 

but we're still talking about flights that are far shorter than what the 763ER can do - which is my point.

Talking about flights that are shorter than what the ER can do. Far is a bit of s stretch. (at least a non-wingleted 767-300ER. with winglets the 300ERs have about 1000nm more range...I would say far is fair to use then) 
 

The 763ER has been in DL's fleet for decades. I'm not sure the A310 stuck around for even a couple years.... but someone can tell us how long DL put up with them.

1991-1995
 
and I am not saying the A310 was a better airplane, it wasn't. But comparing a A310-300 to a 767-200 is completely false. They were turds and I was happy to see them gone however.  
 

and if an A310 couldn't make CLE or DTW to LGW, dawg, how it is that aircraft in any way even remotely comparable to a 767?

I don't know you the one who said it 
 
 

There isn't a point in the continental US that a 763ER can't make from LGW or LGW.

 
Don't think I said other wise......however summer from SLC would likely leave at least cargo behind. SLC-CDG leaves PAXs on the 767 sometimes in the summer. 
 
but that is due to hot-high and needing about 2,000ft of runway.