GAS Fracking. ....Which one is right ?

[Keroseneuser]

If the company is not based in the US then a bond can be posted to grantee the funds. It is quite easy to hold a company responsible if there is the will to do so. Less than 3% of the world water supply is fresh printable water. Do you feel lucky?

Then I guess it is lucky the US Navy has extensive experience with desalinization plants in the nuke sub fleet. So we can make the sea water drinkable! as well as cruise ships etc.

One fact I found interesting is that 70% of all saudi arabias drinking water comes from desalinization.

 

[Ms Tree]

And the US has how many of these desalination plants working right now? Saudi Arabia has how many people? What is Saudi Arabia's National Debt? How many people are on a Nuke Sub or Cruise ship?


In order for SA to become self sufficient in water they would need to increase their water production to 15 billion cubic meters (they currently produce only 15 million cu m) per year. The cost for the increase on what they already have would be $200 billion. The cost for 1 kw power photovoltaic panels to produce the power needed will run about $300 billion. SA currently uses about 1.5 million barrels of oil a day to supply the power to make the water (that's the 15 million meters not the 15 billion that would be needed). Given the cost of oil, making your own water is not very cost effective. They are in the process of building the largest solar powered desalinization plant in the world. I have not found any info on the price but I am guessing it ain't cheap.


SA uses about 1000 l of water to produce one gallon of milk. Not very cost effective so they are going to eliminate local food production and rely on foreign food.


So lets review. The US has 311 million people. SA has 28 million people. The US water supply is already in pretty bad shape. Some places worse than others. The US has $16 trillion in debt and you want to spend how much money making water when we have a supply of it on our land (unlike SA) where we only need to take care of it and it's free?


No wonder you like Romney. The two of you use the same funny math to come up with your answers. Try doing the math with a calculator. SA is spending over half a trillion dollars just to make water for 28 million people. They are doing it because they do not have any water. We have water and you want to spend how many trillions to do this why again?

 

[Keroseneuser]

And the US has how many of these desalination plants working right now? Saudi Arabia has how many people? What is Saudi Arabia's National Debt? How many people are on a Nuke Sub or Cruise ship?


In order for SA to become self sufficient in water they would need to increase their water production to 15 billion cubic meters (they currently produce only 15 million cu m) per year. The cost for the increase on what they already have would be $200 billion. The cost for 1 kw power photovoltaic panels to produce the power needed will run about $300 billion. SA currently uses about 1.5 million barrels of oil a day to supply the power to make the water (that's the 15 million meters not the 15 billion that would be needed). Given the cost of oil, making your own water is not very cost effective. They are in the process of building the largest solar powered desalinization plant in the world. I have not found any info on the price but I am guessing it ain't cheap.


SA uses about 1000 l of water to produce one gallon of milk. Not very cost effective so they are going to eliminate local food production and rely on foreign food.


So lets review. The US has 311 million people. SA has 28 million people. The US water supply is already in pretty bad shape. Some places worse than others. The US has $16 trillion in debt and you want to spend how much money making water when we have a supply of it on our land (unlike SA) where we only need to take care of it and it's free?


No wonder you like Romney. The two of you use the same funny math to come up with your answers. Try doing the math with a calculator. SA is spending over half a trillion dollars just to make water for 28 million people. They are doing it because they do not have any water. We have water and you want to spend how many trillions to do this why again?

LOL, well you are the one that wants us out of the middle east, unless you can magically pull some new technology out of your behind we are stuck with oil for at least another 50 to 100 years, maybe longer, if you want to eat, have hot showers, have electricity, work or basically do anything.

On the flip side SA has all the oil they can possibly use...they just have to desalinize water.

So do you want to tap into our own oil and gas supplies with the strongest safety measure we can and tell the middle east to piss off so we can quit worrying about who is killing who over there and bring all our troops and ships home, or do you want to keep having to be involved in the middle east 4000 year old kill fest?

We cannot have it both ways, maybe when our kids grandchildren are our age, but not for the forseeable future.

Interesting historical note, during WW2 before the mid east oil fields were discovered we were the largest producer of oil in the world...its a major reason we won the war.....and the middle east was a pile of sand that was not even worth invading and other than the actual mid easterners for the most part the rest of the world ignored them. Nobody much cared who was killing who over there. It was a back water during the war. Now 70 years later it is the absolute center of the world and everybody has an interest in it. Why? OIL. We have the ability to remove the ME as a thorn in our side. Use our own oil.

 

[southwind]

I much agree Sparrow.
What is DEFINITELY needed is Federal Regulations. WHY ?
Because Imagine the 'short cuts' that WOULD be taken via GREED, if this country didn't have Federal Regs.

(Think FAA, or FRA) as 2 examples.

Some would say....No Feds. just State regs. But we ALL Know different states have different Agenda's.

TX vs (say) MA. The FEDS eliminate agenda's !

I gotta' admit though Sparrow, seeing the PROPER use of all that layed Steel protective equipt. is starting to change my mind about fracking somewhat.

Tranaslated: "Me want more government !"

On another note, I think we need more regulations on our railways !

 

[Ms Tree]

LOL, well you are the one that wants us out of the middle east, unless you can magically pull some new technology out of your behind we are stuck with oil for at least another 50 to 100 years, maybe longer, if you want to eat, have hot showers, have electricity, work or basically do anything.

On the flip side SA has all the oil they can possibly use...they just have to desalinize water.

So do you want to tap into our own oil and gas supplies with the strongest safety measure we can and tell the middle east to piss off so we can quit worrying about who is killing who over there and bring all our troops and ships home, or do you want to keep having to be involved in the middle east 4000 year old kill fest?

We cannot have it both ways, maybe when our kids grandchildren are our age, but not for the forseeable future.

Interesting historical note, during WW2 before the mid east oil fields were discovered we were the largest producer of oil in the world...its a major reason we won the war.....and the middle east was a pile of sand that was not even worth invading and other than the actual mid easterners for the most part the rest of the world ignored them. Nobody much cared who was killing who over there. It was a back water during the war. Now 70 years later it is the absolute center of the world and everybody has an interest in it. Why? OIL. We have the ability to remove the ME as a thorn in our side. Use our own oil.

You are the one who seems to be OK risking clean water in order to get NG with so much as mentioning conservation. There are field that are not close to water tables. We could reduce our dependance on fossil fuels but that would require effort on our part and god knows that will never happen unless it come from being beat over the head. Mass transit, smaller vehicles, solar and wind power for homes to name a few. Nah, screw that.... lets drill baby drill. We will worry about alternatives later when it is too late.

 

[Keroseneuser]

You are the one who seems to be OK risking clean water in order to get NG with so much as mentioning conservation. There are field that are not close to water tables. We could reduce our dependance on fossil fuels but that would require effort on our part and god knows that will never happen unless it come from being beat over the head. Mass transit, smaller vehicles, solar and wind power for homes to name a few. Nah, screw that.... lets drill baby drill. We will worry about alternatives later when it is too late.

Ah ok something we can do now to solve this oil issue.

Cost to power every house in the US with wind power= 4.37 trillion. based on 125 million houses in US at 35k per wind power unit for it (low end one, upper end unit is 50k+

Cost to Solar power all houses in the US= 2.75 trillion based on 22k per house again low end system from what I can find.

Actual mix would be between the two systems since some places have sun a lot but no wind some wind but no sun. Ballpark it at $3.5 trillion.



Cost to replace all cars in the US with a new Chevy volt (cannot buy foreign cars since we need the jobs here) 243 million cars in US at $38000 per chevy volt= $9.23 trillion.

Figure each system is good for about 10 years (wind turbine, solar cells, car) and for just a hair under 13 trillion dollars every 10 years we can pull all US households off gas and electricity. Have to be thrify on the power though, the low end systems I cited have serious limitations compared to what we currently use in our homes.

Then all we have left would be the oil and electricity used to Power all office buildings etc, all railroads and mass transit, all airliners, trucking industry, and farm equipment. No technology out there yet to fly jets, run trucks(at the level we need them) railroads and farm equipment on batteries.

Wait, i forgot enough charging stations to be able to recharge all the volts.........be right back.......

EDIT: Ok back, cost per level 2 charging station seems to be about $1500 at the moment. If everyone get ones for their volt thats 364 billion, not including public stations required for them while travelling.

By comparison it is taking 7 billion barrels of oil a year for the U.S. right now, or 6 trillion dollars for the 10 year period to power us at current oil prices. But that is just oil not our total fossil fuel use.

Cool, all we need to do is come up with 7 trillion dollars more every ten years and we got this car gas thing licked......My claculator blew up with all the zeros so far, so i am not going to attempt to calculate how much above the 7 trillion more per 10 years we need to actually pull off total fossil fuel independence.

 

[southwind]

You are the one who seems to be OK risking clean water in order to get NG with so much as mentioning conservation. There are field that are not close to water tables. We could reduce our dependance on fossil fuels but that would require effort on our part and god knows that will never happen unless it come from being beat over the head. Mass transit, smaller vehicles, solar and wind power for homes to name a few. Nah, screw that.... lets drill baby drill. We will worry about alternatives later when it is too late.

Listen Tree, there is nothing wrong with decreasing our dependence on fossil fuel, but that ain't happening over night..............period ! In the mean time use "OUR" resources that we have "NOW" to help the average Joe, i.e. gas prices and to avoid funding terrorism by trading oil with the middle east.
Let me list the "Green" company's who have taken tax payer money and went belly up !

1. Abound Solar (Loveland, Colorado), manufacturer of thin film photovoltaic modules.
   
2. Beacon Power (Tyngsborough, Massachusetts), designed and developed advanced products and services to support stable, reliable and efficient electricity grid operation.
   
3. Ener1 (Indianapolis, Indiana), built compact lithium-ion-powered battery solutions for hybrid and electric cars.
   
4. Energy Conversion Devices (Rochester Hills, Michigan/Auburn Hills, Michigan), manufacturer of flexible thin film photovoltaic (PV) technology and a producer of batteries and other renewable energy-related products.
   
5. Evergreen Solar, Inc. (Marlborough, Massachusetts), manufactured and installed solar panels.
   
6. Mountain Plaza, Inc. (Dandridge, Tennessee), designed and implemented “truck-stop electrification” technology.
   
7. Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsens Mills Acquisition Co. (Berlin, Wisconsin), a private company producing ethanol.
   
8. Range Fuels (Soperton, Georgia), tried to develop a technology that converted biomass into ethanol without the use of enzymes.
   
9. Raser Technologies (Provo, Utah), geothermal power plants and technology licensing.
   
10. Solyndra (Fremont, California), manufacturer of cylindrical panels of thin-film solar cells.
    
11. Spectrawatt (Hopewell, New York), solar cell manufacturer.
    
12. Thompson River Power LLC (Wayzata, Minnesota), designed and developed advanced products and services to support stable, reliable and efficient electricity grid operation.

This list is known as the "Green Graveyard!"

When you can come up with a reliable company who can come up with a reliable, affordable, alternative fuel source, sign me up ! Until then.........Drill, Baby, Drill..............and Frack too !

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Listen Tree, there is nothing wrong with decreasing our dependence on fossil fuel, but that ain't happening over night..............period !

Maybe we should have listened to that President who wanted us to do that back in 1976.

Overnight would have been 15 years ago.

But hey, turn up the radio and continue to march on little soldier.

 

[eolesen]

Then all we have left would be the oil and electricity used to Power all office buildings etc, all railroads and mass transit, all airliners, trucking industry, and farm equipment. No technology out there yet to fly jets, run trucks(at the level we need them) railroads and farm equipment on batteries.

Well, I agree with most of your argument, but there is technology to run railroads off electric. Most Euro countries already do. All you need is strip mine enough copper to manufacture enough wire to run from here to the moon & back, and cut down approx 25M trees to support the overhead wire.

And then there's the 25,000 substations that would need to be built every 10 miles, trees or steel to support the transmission wiring to/from the power generating stations, and building some 20,000 new locomotives...

 

[Ms Tree]

Ah ok something we can do now to solve this oil issue.

Cost to power every house in the US with wind power= 4.37 trillion. based on 125 million houses in US at 35k per wind power unit for it (low end one, upper end unit is 50k+

Cost to Solar power all houses in the US= 2.75 trillion based on 22k per house again low end system from what I can find.

Actual mix would be between the two systems since some places have sun a lot but no wind some wind but no sun. Ballpark it at $3.5 trillion.



Cost to replace all cars in the US with a new Chevy volt (cannot buy foreign cars since we need the jobs here) 243 million cars in US at $38000 per chevy volt= $9.23 trillion.

Figure each system is good for about 10 years (wind turbine, solar cells, car) and for just a hair under 13 trillion dollars every 10 years we can pull all US households off gas and electricity. Have to be thrify on the power though, the low end systems I cited have serious limitations compared to what we currently use in our homes.

Then all we have left would be the oil and electricity used to Power all office buildings etc, all railroads and mass transit, all airliners, trucking industry, and farm equipment. No technology out there yet to fly jets, run trucks(at the level we need them) railroads and farm equipment on batteries.

Wait, i forgot enough charging stations to be able to recharge all the volts.........be right back.......

EDIT: Ok back, cost per level 2 charging station seems to be about $1500 at the moment. If everyone get ones for their volt thats 364 billion, not including public stations required for them while travelling.

By comparison it is taking 7 billion barrels of oil a year for the U.S. right now, or 6 trillion dollars for the 10 year period to power us at current oil prices. But that is just oil not our total fossil fuel use.

Cool, all we need to do is come up with 7 trillion dollars more every ten years and we got this car gas thing licked......My claculator blew up with all the zeros so far, so i am not going to attempt to calculate how much above the 7 trillion more per 10 years we need to actually pull off total fossil fuel independence.

Do you think there is a remote possibility that those prices that are based on low volume production might change just a little bit based on a higher volume of sales say like TV's or automobiles?

Who the hell mentioned that POS Volt. Can you think of any other possibilities to reduce fuel consumption or do you just like presenting extreme examples that are futile?

Trains can be run on electric, trucks on CNG, offices buildings might be able to fit with more efficient glass, HVAC .. there is quite a bit of technology out there to make things more efficient and as volume increases the price would decrease ... or we can just continue down the road we are on and pay even more later when the changes will be a necessity for survival. Being proactive is always less expensive than being reactive.

 

[Ms Tree]

Maybe we should have listened to that President who wanted us to do that back in 1976.

Overnight would have been 15 years ago.

But hey, turn up the radio and continue to march on little soldier.

Crap. You beat me to it.


We have had 30 years of over nights. Everyone wants to kick the can down the road. Think how cheap clean energy would be now had we started to invest in R&D back when we did not need it and energy was cheap. No reason to do that since energy prices will never go up right?

I am pretty certain I can come up with a list of companies in any sector that have gone belly up. New technology will always have a risk attached to it.

Pay a little now or pay a lot later. Looking at our history, we tend to pay more later.

 

[Ms Tree]

Well, I agree with most of your argument, but there is technology to run railroads off electric. Most Euro countries already do. All you need is strip mine enough copper to manufacture enough wire to run from here to the moon & back, and cut down approx 25M trees to support the overhead wire.

And then there's the 25,000 substations that would need to be built every 10 miles, trees or steel to support the transmission wiring to/from the power generating stations, and building some 20,000 new locomotives...

Yea, you're right. Since we cannot do it for cheap and over night why bother. Just keep on keeping on. Our current path is perfect.

 

[jimntx]

Since NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) is the reigning philosophy in the United States, why don't some of you who are gung-ho for fracking volunteer to move to a house on top of a reservoir that has been tapped. Oh, and your drinking water will need to come up from below that reservoir (which, of course, has been tapped with no, none, not any damage to the surrounding soil strata, and guaranteed no leakage into the water table--it must be true, the gas fracking company told me so).

That would show your dedication to the principal of "let's use it all now. We promise to be careful." Just like BP in the Gulf, or that Exxon pipeline in the Northwest, or the Alaskan pipeline that has leaked like a sieve from time to time since it was first built.

Be sure and support that pipeline that the oil shale folk want to build from Canada to the Gulf Coast. Pay no attention to the fact that the end point of that pipeline is not destined for a refinery or refineries. It is scheduled to terminate at a deepwater port so that the oil can be exported to China. It ain't gonna stay here.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Crap. You beat me to it.


We have had 30 years of over nights. Everyone wants to kick the can down the road. Think how cheap clean energy would be now had we started to invest in R&D back when we did not need it and energy was cheap. No reason to do that since energy prices will never go up right?

I am pretty certain I can come up with a list of companies in any sector that have gone belly up. New technology will always have a risk attached to it.

Pay a little now or pay a lot later. Looking at our history, we tend to pay more later.

Thank you for making my point for me.

1976 average car got about 10 to 12 MPG, now we are in the 25 mpg range.
1976 electric cars and hybrids were an odd experimental item. Now they are fairly common.
1976 a mid range airliner burned 6000 pounds of fuel an hour, now they are in the 3500 to 4000 lb range.

technology is advancing and reducing our carbon foorprint. And for the most part doing it without using tax dollars pissed away on failed "Green" feel good money pits.

We are 16 trillion dollars in debt, the last thing we need to be doing is throwing more money away on govt. programs that takes the money throws it away and left with nothing to show for it. Government produces nothing, never has and never will. They regulate, but produce nothing.

You want us to pay a lot now, and be flat broke later. It will not work, look how much was thrown away in the last 4 years on green stuff. Might as well have tossed a few billion dollars out on the front lawn of the white house and had a bonfire.

As I have asked before, WHERE IS THE MONEY FOR ALL THIS GOING TO COME FROM? Even joe Bidens stated trillion dollar tax increase they are planning wont even come close to doing what you are proposing in the next 30 years. Much less anytime sooner.

 

[Ms Tree]

Thirty years and we have increased average MPG by 11 MPG. Oh be still my heart. Pardon me if I do not believe that is the extent of our capability.

So we are agreed. Stay the course right over the edge. Keep on keeping on.