GAS Fracking. ....Which one is right ?

[Keroseneuser]

Since NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) is the reigning philosophy in the United States, why don't some of you who are gung-ho for fracking volunteer to move to a house on top of a reservoir that has been tapped. Oh, and your drinking water will need to come up from below that reservoir (which, of course, has been tapped with no, none, not any damage to the surrounding soil strata, and guaranteed no leakage into the water table--it must be true, the gas fracking company told me so).

That would show your dedication to the principal of "let's use it all now. We promise to be careful." Just like BP in the Gulf, or that Exxon pipeline in the Northwest, or the Alaskan pipeline that has leaked like a sieve from time to time since it was first built.

Be sure and support that pipeline that the oil shale folk want to build from Canada to the Gulf Coast. Pay no attention to the fact that the end point of that pipeline is not destined for a refinery or refineries. It is scheduled to terminate at a deepwater port so that the oil can be exported to China. It ain't gonna stay here.

And the folks who scream quit using oil will be the first ones bit%hing when they have to take a dump in a plastic bucket and have to stand in line for an hour to get a loaf of bread since the truck only comes once a month. How about we return to those lovely days of the 70's when you could only buy gas on even and odd days depending on your license plate number? Oh yeah, i remember those days sitting in line at the gas station for an hour or more. Made family holiday trips a blast...well not really a blast...just however far you could go on one tank of gas every 2 days.

Right now we are slaves to the middle east and whatever nutcase is currently over there causing trouble. I am all for encouringing research into better power sources. However as it stands right now all you have to do to destroy this country is pop a thermonuke off in the oil fields of the middle east and this country collapses inside 18 months. Not just an economic collapse but a full blown no food people starving and killing for a ham sandwich type of collapse. That is how dependant we are on oil.

tap our own oil fields AND research new technologies, then we can withstand whatever the nutcase of the month is in the middle east without having to get our troopers killed or spend billions in military operations. Get off the oil teet of the middle east and we can stand back and watch the sandbox implode for all we care.

Remember also that we won the second world war by grit, determination, bravery, and by being the worlds largest producer of oil. 60% of the worlds supply in the war years. When germany and japan were so low on oil that entire airfields of airplanes were surrendered to a couple of squads of grunts on foot without a fight, we were swimming in plenty of oil for ships and fuel for tanks and planes. The german battle of the bulge represented its last desperate gasp of life, made it a hundred miles or so then ran out of gas for the tanks. The allied fuel depot they intended to capture so they could continue was destroyed by us so they were SOL. Sadly if we continue the way we are that could be us next time.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Thirty years and we have increased average MPG by 11 MPG. Oh be still my heart. Pardon me if I do not believe that is the extent of our capability.

So we are agreed. Stay the course right over the edge. Keep on keeping on.

Ok so what should the MPG of the average car be now? tops I see on the market is in the 45 mpg range for a rollerskate sized car.

It took us 200,000 years to come up with an automobile, and in the last 100 years the automobile has gone from a barely running black smoke puffing oddity to what we have today. What is your ideal automobile that will go 500 miles a day if needed or just a quick trip to the hospital using the current technology we have today? mind you it has to be cheap and affordable, remember the average income of the united states is just under $49,000 a year.

 

[Ms Tree]

Funny, Took me a few min and I found several car that make an average of 60-70+ mpg. They are car body styles we drive here but the drive trains are not offered here in the states..... Go figure. The technology is there we just choose not to use it. Part of the problem is the lack of mass transit and the low price of fuel.

Keep on keeping on. Everything will be just fine.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Funny, Took me a few min and I found several car that make an average of 60-70+ mpg. They are car body styles we drive here but the drive trains are not offered here in the states..... Go figure. The technology is there we just choose not to use it. Part of the problem is the lack of mass transit and the low price of fuel.

Keep on keeping on. Everything will be just fine.

As we discussed some time ago mass transit like the europeans use is unworkable here. The cost to connect every little town as they do in say Germany would be akin to the expendatures we made during world war 2. Where is the money going to come from?

i am interested in the cars you found, please post brand and models. I have a feeling if the cars were a valid replacement for what we are currently using they would be marketed here. Nothing is stopping that.

I saw many different drivetrain options in europe over the years but each one had some serious drawbacks. Would like to check out the ones you are discussing.

 

[Ms Tree]

Mini, Audi A1, A3 (MPG in the 50's) VW Golf to name a few. All diesels. Remember to divide the mpg by 1.2 to get US MPG.

How about we get mass transit in the cities and then we worry about connecting them. Baby steps or we can just do the same BS we have been doing which is nothing.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Mini, Audi A1, A3 (MPG in the 50's) VW Golf to name a few. All diesels. Remember to divide the mpg by 1.2 to get US MPG.

How about we get mass transit in the cities and then we worry about connecting them. Baby steps or we can just do the same BS we have been doing which is nothing.

Current national prices:
Gas low 3.44 high 4.24
Diesel low 3.99 high 4.38

Prices for cars:

Mini D= $33,750 WOW! Thats a lot of green for a matchbox car!
Golf TDI=$25335
Audi a1 TDI= 15,320 euro or $19876
Audi a3 TDI= 20,155 euro or $26,143

All very small cars that most of these fast food junkies in the US will have a rough time with, add in the 2.5 snot nosed kids plus the family beagle and thats a blivit (Blivit defined as 10 pounds of poo in a 5 pound bag). I am 6.2 without the fast food addiction and the mini is painful to get it. Golf is tiny for me also, never been in the small audis. No way i could load my family in it and go anywhere.

OR they could have a much larger vehicle, two random examples with no consideration given to gas milage when i typed the names.
Gas powered
Hyundai veracruz, seats 7, large carrying capacity, SUV.. $28,748 22 MPG
Ford explorer , same class as above, $28,460 24 mpg.

There are lots of choices that are smaller with better mpg that still has room in it for lower price, but bottom line is why will a family spend that kind of money as listed above for a car that wont serve the purpose of a car for their family AND pay basically the same price in fuel each year? Gas is cheaper so it makes up for a lot of the diesels mpg advantage.

The reason those cars are not sold here is the distances we use them for. The drive to work in europe is generally a lot shorter than the drive to work here. Many of our states are bigger than most of europes countries.

The mass transit in cities we pretty much already have. Even little old southern town USA I live in has a light rail. (It goes nowhere that I can use, even the new 9 mile extention they are adding does nothing for most of us in the city but the price tag for the extention is 1.6 billion) The only way mass transit can work here like it does in europe is massive spending of money that we do not have.

If the cars you listed could work for the majority of the folks in the US they would be here. Free market will get the products where they are wanted. Govt. spending gobs of money on stuff that the population won't buy, or cannot buy because it will not serve the purpose it is intended for wont work. It will just be money thrown away. Examples of this is every single electric car in production, volt, leaf, etc etc. All work fairly well...if you dont have to go far or haul a family while doing it. But as a whole every single one of them is a flop except as a "Green machine" for the company in a very small niche market.

 

[Ms Tree]

Not sure what Mini you drove but I'm 6'4" @ 200lbs and fit just fine. Some how all of Europe manages to do just fine with the smaller cars. The make do because fuel prices demand it. I have a Opel Astra hatch back that I put over 1,000 miles on in 2006 without issue or complaint. We averaged about 47mpg for the trip. Funny how you say you have a mass transit system and yet it goes not where you need to go. Sounds like not much of a mass transit system. While in Europe we used the car between cities (wanted to see some sites and take our time) but used the mass transit in the cities. It went every where we needed to go. Never used the car in any of the cities we went to. Seems a little more efficient if you ask me. I live in between Dallas and Ft Worth. Not a lick of public transportation. Dallas is starting with light rail. not very efficient yet but its a start. I hope they keep expanding it. The US will buy them. Don't worry. When fuel hit $6 or $7 a gallon you'd be surprised what people will do. Same reason they are popular in Europe. In the mean time the selfish Americans can drive alone in their big SUV's and pick up wasting gas and keeping us dependent on the ME for fuel and sacrificing more US troops to protect it.

 

[Keroseneuser]

. In the mean time the selfish Americans can drive alone in their big SUV's and pick up wasting gas and keeping us dependent on the ME for fuel and sacrificing more US troops to protect it.

I hate to tell you, the whole country could be driving go karts and we would still be dependant on the middle east as long as we don't tap our own oil and gas. So don't try to blame dead troops on the folks driving SUV's. If you eat prepackaged food you are 100% dependant on the ME oil. If you are an avid hunter and kill all your meat and grow all your vegetables then congrats, you are not dependant on the middle east.

I don't hunt much anymore, but if you need some pointers on how to get a meal free from the evil influence of oil let me know. (well the ammo used has some oil dependance in its production) we can do archery hunting if that bothers you.

 

[eolesen]

All sorts of oil we could tap into that doesn't involve dealing with the Middle East, Mexico or Chavez.

Glad to see our soldiers are as much of a concern as a couple of karibu and polar bears who might be disturbed if ANWR were to be tapped... Likewise for all the oil sitting offshore on our coasts.

 

[Ms Tree]

Curious. Who is going to drill for this oil? The US government? No? Mobil? BP? Do you think they will sell it to the US for below market rate or are we just going to take it from them? Dealing with the ME is only part of the problem.

So if we cannot eliminate our dependance why bother?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Curious. Who is going to drill for this oil? The US government? No? Mobil? BP? Do you think they will sell it to the US for below market rate or are we just going to take it from them? Dealing with the ME is only part of the problem.

So if we cannot eliminate our dependance why bother?

If you want to eliminate our dependance on oil in your life time you need to start living like it is the 1800's Sell your cars, shut off your power, quit eating prepackaged food, and quit wearing storebought clothes.

When you tried to blame the deaths of our soilders on people driving SUV's while you are sitting in a house with power on a computer, snacking on a junk food of your choice drinking a soda, wearing clothes(I guess), you crossed a line.

You are the worst kind out there, you sit there and direct smug remarks toward your fellow man even going so far as to blame the deaths of US troops on them. I agree that we need to find new sources of power and conserve, but until you pony up and quit using every single item that is shipped, produced, aquired, or in anyway connected with oil you are just as much to blame for our involvement in the middle east mess as the guy driving the SUV. Don't think that driving a fart bubble that gets a better gas milage gives you the right to give the rest of the country a better than you attitude.

The short term soulution to getting out of the middle east mess is to tap our own oil and gas, the long term solution is to work toward another power source. but as long as you oppose using our own reserves you have zero right to try to blame soldiers deaths on some guy in a bigger car than you have. You are as much to blame as anybody else in this country.

 

[Ms Tree]

Interesting piece of logic but what ever. I'm done.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Interesting piece of logic but what ever. I'm done.

Yeah I figured that. Folks like you cannot take reality staring you in the face.

 

[eolesen]

I suppose people like tree would prefer we take Venezuela and Mexico's approach --- have the government take ownership the oil industry. Re-elect the Socialist in Chief again, and we just might wind up with that as the solution to high gas prices...

 

[southwind]

Maybe we should have listened to that President who wanted us to do that back in 1976.

Overnight would have been 15 years ago.

But hey, turn up the radio and continue to march on little soldier.

At least some of us don't live in the past...................Lil' ObamaBot !

Do you think there is a remote possibility that those prices that are based on low volume production might change just a little bit based on a higher volume of sales say like TV's or automobiles?

Who the hell mentioned that POS Volt. Can you think of any other possibilities to reduce fuel consumption or do you just like presenting extreme examples that are futile?

Trains can be run on electric, trucks on CNG, offices buildings might be able to fit with more efficient glass, HVAC .. there is quite a bit of technology out there to make things more efficient and as volume increases the price would decrease ... or we can just continue down the road we are on and pay even more later when the changes will be a necessity for survival. Being proactive is always less expensive than being reactive.

Never said we shouldn't be investing money in alternative fuel, just not investing "Taxpayer" money in Obama Supporters little "Pop-up" Green energy company's !

Crap. You beat me to it.


We have had 30 years of over nights. Everyone wants to kick the can down the road. Think how cheap clean energy would be now had we started to invest in R&D back when we did not need it and energy was cheap. No reason to do that since energy prices will never go up right?

I am pretty certain I can come up with a list of companies in any sector that have gone belly up. New technology will always have a risk attached to it.

Pay a little now or pay a lot later. Looking at our history, we tend to pay more later.

Someone else is living in the past !

Yea, you're right. Since we cannot do it for cheap and over night why bother. Just keep on keeping on. Our current path is perfect.

Tree will only be happy when everyone rides bicycles and be taxed on the carbon footprint our breath leaves !

Mini, Audi A1, A3 (MPG in the 50's) VW Golf to name a few. All diesels. Remember to divide the mpg by 1.2 to get US MPG.

How about we get mass transit in the cities and then we worry about connecting them. Baby steps or we can just do the same BS we have been doing which is nothing.

Pretty hilarious how in one post you say ,"There are cars getting 60-70 mpg over in Europe!" then a couple of post down, someone calls you out to name such cars, then proceed to sat these vehicles get 50 mpg!" That's 10 mpg difference !
Why are you b!tchin' and moanin' about 11 mpg increase fossil-fuel driven vehicles !
Your idea car below !