767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
Thanks for the correction.
Jetblue To Reconsider E190 Order
- Thread starter ISP
- Start date
As to my money and my mouth, I have. Ref my post above, my seniority number has little value, and I haven't had to "give it up" to pursue other options. IMO, UAL's rates ARE too low. I refuse to work for them (I don't think the wife would appreciate a 6 figure PAYCUT). Needless to say, I'm bypassing recall....
h34r:CaptianBoomer
Advanced
- Jan 26, 2004
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Boomer is here.
First, you and umech are wrong. U paid the base rate for the 319....4% more for the 320 and 7% more for the 321. FO on the 319 paid $130/hour and $151 on the 321. Don't believe me....dude I was there. They also paid more for the 737-400 than the -300 and more for the MD-80 than the DC-9. FACT. Only with the new contract and the fleet simplification in 1997 or 1998 did this change. They went to groups of aircraft. And the Busses paid different rates right up till the agreement the day they filed BK.
As far as me being a scumbag because I am senior and don't care about the junior guy.....wrong again. I am junior and I am going to fly the 190. Try again. Again, you have no idea about my experiences in this business. I was a junior guy that got cut off the bottom of the list and then had my pay cut again because of the "senior" guys who didn't want to give up to save more jobs. They also gave the company the right to get hundreds more pilot replacement jets for the regionals. If you don't like it that the senior guys run the show, then you need to get into another line of work.
Your posts about Neeleman are way off base. A character flaw again? When JB was profitable post 9/11 they gave the pilots here a payraise that was unsolicited and RETROACTIVE.
As far as the 318 pay...if the rate that JB management gave us was 30% less, I would go along with what my fellow pilots decided. MY fellow pilots. Not anyone else. See you and Busdrvr live in the same dream world about pilots from different airlines sticking together. That is as far in the past as recip powered airiners. At this point, I give a crap about my family and my employer. While I don't wish ill will on ANY group of pilots, I can only control the success of my airline. Therefore, that is my focus.
I am sorry that you don't agree. When you figure out how to get this business back to 1965, let me know.
Boomer
First, you and umech are wrong. U paid the base rate for the 319....4% more for the 320 and 7% more for the 321. FO on the 319 paid $130/hour and $151 on the 321. Don't believe me....dude I was there. They also paid more for the 737-400 than the -300 and more for the MD-80 than the DC-9. FACT. Only with the new contract and the fleet simplification in 1997 or 1998 did this change. They went to groups of aircraft. And the Busses paid different rates right up till the agreement the day they filed BK.
As far as me being a scumbag because I am senior and don't care about the junior guy.....wrong again. I am junior and I am going to fly the 190. Try again. Again, you have no idea about my experiences in this business. I was a junior guy that got cut off the bottom of the list and then had my pay cut again because of the "senior" guys who didn't want to give up to save more jobs. They also gave the company the right to get hundreds more pilot replacement jets for the regionals. If you don't like it that the senior guys run the show, then you need to get into another line of work.
Your posts about Neeleman are way off base. A character flaw again? When JB was profitable post 9/11 they gave the pilots here a payraise that was unsolicited and RETROACTIVE.
As far as the 318 pay...if the rate that JB management gave us was 30% less, I would go along with what my fellow pilots decided. MY fellow pilots. Not anyone else. See you and Busdrvr live in the same dream world about pilots from different airlines sticking together. That is as far in the past as recip powered airiners. At this point, I give a crap about my family and my employer. While I don't wish ill will on ANY group of pilots, I can only control the success of my airline. Therefore, that is my focus.
I am sorry that you don't agree. When you figure out how to get this business back to 1965, let me know.
Boomer
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
Well Boomer, I respect the fact that your family comes first and that you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. Sounds to me like you got burned by senior guys at USAirways who would sell their souls to save their own a$$. That's a bum deal as well and I feel for you. I hope you keep in mind that it doesn't mean it should or has to be that way in the future. (Don't do it to the guys junior to you when you are an old senior guy.)
As for this thread, I guess we must agree to disagree. IMO the CASM of the 190 is lower than other options in large part because of the pay scale.
Peace,
767jetz
justaumechanic
Veteran
- Dec 15, 2003
- 578
- 0
Hey Boomer
Get the stick out of your butt..
The point of my post was to inform people that at one time
US Airways paid a premium for the A321.. Someone posted that U always paid the same rate for the three Airbus types. That was in error..
And I was there to. Don't think you are the only one that work at U and have all this special knowledge.
The simple fact.. U paid a premium to the flight crews for the A321.. That was the point of my post. Learn to read and understand before you throw rocks at people.
Get the stick out of your butt..
The point of my post was to inform people that at one time
US Airways paid a premium for the A321.. Someone posted that U always paid the same rate for the three Airbus types. That was in error..
And I was there to. Don't think you are the only one that work at U and have all this special knowledge.
The simple fact.. U paid a premium to the flight crews for the A321.. That was the point of my post. Learn to read and understand before you throw rocks at people.
B
B.O.B.
Guest
767jetz,
No matter what you tell these brainwashed non-union fools at jetBlue, they will not believe you. jetBlue is another Delta in the making. Management will make them their robots and they will do as their master says.
It's only a matter of time before the *hit hits the fan at jetBlue. The people at jetBlue think their *hit doesn't stink. Little do they know!
CaptianBoomer
Advanced
- Jan 26, 2004
- 160
- 0
BOB:
Actually at one time, I was a brainwashed, union fool.
The unions at the airlines have basically outlived their usefulness. Generally, all they do is make sure the dead weight employees keep their jobs at all cost. Unions also take and rarely give.
You can say whatever you want about JB.....it won't affect how we do business one bit.
As far as the "senior" guys screwing me, it was not my intention to say that they are the reason I was furloughed and had to start over. It is the "system". Like I said, if you can figure out how to fix it, let me know. A union at JB won't do it.
The arguement that pilot pay at JB has eroded the pay scales of all airlines is improbable at best. If the pay at JB has caused all the major carriers to cut theirs, how come SWA's leading pay hasn't balanced the scales? It is mostly because the BK process allows management to abrogate contracts and that process is what has caused the full scale decimation of the earning power of airline employees. So it is either say screw off to management and watch your airline go away or "live to fight another day". I don't like that term because fighting the good fight for the sake of the "brotherhood" only furthers the careers of everyone else and you end up on the outside looking in.
I will let you have the last word here as we have gotten way off topic.
Boomer
Actually at one time, I was a brainwashed, union fool.
The unions at the airlines have basically outlived their usefulness. Generally, all they do is make sure the dead weight employees keep their jobs at all cost. Unions also take and rarely give.
You can say whatever you want about JB.....it won't affect how we do business one bit.
As far as the "senior" guys screwing me, it was not my intention to say that they are the reason I was furloughed and had to start over. It is the "system". Like I said, if you can figure out how to fix it, let me know. A union at JB won't do it.
The arguement that pilot pay at JB has eroded the pay scales of all airlines is improbable at best. If the pay at JB has caused all the major carriers to cut theirs, how come SWA's leading pay hasn't balanced the scales? It is mostly because the BK process allows management to abrogate contracts and that process is what has caused the full scale decimation of the earning power of airline employees. So it is either say screw off to management and watch your airline go away or "live to fight another day". I don't like that term because fighting the good fight for the sake of the "brotherhood" only furthers the careers of everyone else and you end up on the outside looking in.
I will let you have the last word here as we have gotten way off topic.
Boomer
If all you so called JB "experts" from other airlines would spend half as much time worrying about the problems at your own carrier as you do about JetBlue, the industry would be in much better shape than it is today. You don't work here, take care of your own business and we'll take care of ours.
See ya
v1
See ya
v1
I can't believe this thread has gone 5 pages without this being mentioned.
One of the largest determinants of fuel burn is aircraft cross section. The E190's cross section is only 76% of the A318 while offering similiar capacity.
The A318 is a shrink of the A320 and thus the wing is not optimized for the length. While the E190 is a stretch of the E170 the wing is different and thus optimized for the length.
While I believe B6 management did account for pay scale differences, I think there was a lot more at play with deciding on the E190 vs. the A318.
One of the largest determinants of fuel burn is aircraft cross section. The E190's cross section is only 76% of the A318 while offering similiar capacity.
The A318 is a shrink of the A320 and thus the wing is not optimized for the length. While the E190 is a stretch of the E170 the wing is different and thus optimized for the length.
While I believe B6 management did account for pay scale differences, I think there was a lot more at play with deciding on the E190 vs. the A318.
The kids are having fun. Don't confuse them with facts.
If you Jblew "professionals" spent half as much time getting other skills as you spend defending ADD Dave, you wouldn't have to be selling out a profession.
FWIW, Many of us told you a couple of years ago that the stock options wouldn't be worth crap for the new guys.... We were right. Many of us told you that despite all the hype about how ADD Dave had cracked the code and had some secret way to get every jet out on time, that as you grew, your performance would deteriorate......We were right. And many of us told you that as the "creative accounting" had to start "accounting" for something it should have from day one (mx), you'd suddenly have "profitablity issues"....and we were right. Now we are telling you that EMB made jets are royal POS's, and you are forever establishing bargain basement rates for the jet, because ADD DAVE will likely buy all of the ones he ordered, then use the excuse that it isn't performing as planned, so the rates must stay very low, or Blew will be BK, and you will crumble and give him just what he wants.
And BTW, 'How can just little ol me affect the rates pilots at those darned big airlines get paid' is a SCAB response. It's the same quibbling they did when they crossed the picket line. "I'm just one guy" "I just need a job" "I have to do this for my family" Funny, the ret of the non-pilot familys in the U.S. do just fine without lining up to support ADD Daves social experiment of rock bottom Pilot rates. Disgusting.
Relax busdrvr. You brought up some good points somewhere back in the thread, but you lost me with this playyard namecalling stuff. "Scab", "ADD Dave", "JBlew", etc. What puerile nonsense.
If you want to play selective memory games, then sure you were right about some things. I'll give you that. But you're certainly not right about everything and you're relentlessly pessimistic. You seem to have no regard for the positives, just the negatives, so it's difficult to pay much attention. You don't even attempt to be balanced or open-minded, so I'm afraid a lot of what you say just gets lost.
If you want to play selective memory games, then sure you were right about some things. I'll give you that. But you're certainly not right about everything and you're relentlessly pessimistic. You seem to have no regard for the positives, just the negatives, so it's difficult to pay much attention. You don't even attempt to be balanced or open-minded, so I'm afraid a lot of what you say just gets lost.
The name calling usually starts after one of V1's intellegent posts....and I never called anyone a scab, I said it was a scab response. I stand by that comment. I have the utmost respect for some of you guys (like D-8 usually). When you say we haven't been right about EVERYTHING, what else are you refering to? Is it possible that we are right about everything, but the time hasn't come yet? As to my ADD Dave, you can't be a real airline pilot unless you hate ALL CEO's, especially your own. Get with the program!!
I'm still trying to figure out how someone like Busdrvr, who is so free market when it comes to oil prices and SUVs, can have such a problem with labor being providing through free market mechanisms? I'm not trying to start an argument, but I'd really like to understand why conservative free market principles do not apply here?
