New Pilot TA breakdown

[jcw]

you mean those same bidding rights that AA and UA pilots don't have to the degree that DL pilots have?and the no pilots were convinced they wouldn't lose while I saw plenty of yes pilots who were convinced that they wouldn't lose.Even the no voters can't deny that DL employees, pilot and non-pilot, have enjoyed the highest level of profit sharing in the industry and will again this year because even if the TA was approved, profit sharing wouldn't have changed. And even if the TA was approved, the level of profit sharing would still be as high as WN and perhaps higher.DL employees will easily enjoy 15-20% profit sharing this year - a rare air level of profit sharing anywhere in corporate America.

The profit sharing that the company wants to reduce otherwise it would not have been in the contract offering - Seems like DL wants to reduce its profit sharing expenses or exposure or both

Unless you are going to argue the pilots asked for a reduction in profit sharing for an increase in salary - if that's the case how do you argue this point since it will contradict all you other postings on how employees want more profit sharing

 

[700UW]

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/07/13/delta-air-lines-pilots-spurn-industry-leading-pay.aspx?source=eogyholnk0000001

 

[eolesen]

This does sound like it was about a lot more than profit sharing for the pilots, particularly the JV formula shift which would apparently treat a 744 the same as a 738 as far as "credit" goes.

 

[southwind]

They were losing more then they were gaining, is that too hard for you to understand?

And from what is being posted around it had more to do with sick time and scope (loss of international flying to partners).
 
And how the FOs were losing bidding rights to check airman.

Twist it however you want but again, I've heard you dismiss PS more than once as not being a viable, reliable source of income, that is not guaranteed. You seem to either want to use PS as a positive or negative, depending on what agenda your pushing for the day!

Answer this one question....is PS a good thing or a bad thing ?

 

[WorldTraveler]

This does sound like it was about a lot more than profit sharing for the pilots, particularly the JV formula shift which would apparently treat a 744 the same as a 738 as far as "credit" goes.

there were multiple issues involved that the pilots thought would cause them to lose.

I have read as many arguments from one side arguing that the math used by one group to argue that they would lose is as wrong and vice versa.

DL simply thru too many moving parts into a contract that the pilots didn't see as having big enough numbers but since there were enough pilots that argued they would never sell some things at any price, I'm not sure any larger value would help.

DL will likely repackage some of their ask while also pushing ahead with other major business issues including Gol and Skymark which will force DALPA to realize that the stated intention of just sticking wiht Contract 2012 instead of moving forward is a very dangerous place for them to take the union.

Being distracted with a change in union is potentially even more dangerous.

DL wants to move forward, the pilots want to as well and both sides need to meet each other. Collective bargaining is not a process of everyone or even side getting everything it wants.

 

[700UW]

Threats again.

The status quo is not dangerous, it is more advantageous as DL can't add more flights via the JV.

JV was a major issue and the pilots felt they were giving up too much scope.

And the FO losing trips to check airman was a major issue along with sick time and unlimited access to their medical records.

And 65% no to 35% yes is a clear message to the union and the company.

But you would rather make threats like usual.

 

[WorldTraveler]

There are no threats.

DL is going to move forward. Unions have repeatedly refused to work with companies to solve strategic problems and it has rarely been successful for the union to dig its heels in and refuse to deal with the problem.

you can harp on all of the talking points from the pilot forums that you want but there are two sides and there are an equal number of pilots who saw both sides to each issue; the problem for DL was that they had too many issues which affected a subset of the pilots in one way or the other and the combined number of issues affected the majority of pilots, none of whom were convinced that they weren't losing in the process.

you can view the process as one of threats but it is quite simply a process where the company will move forward with its strategic objectives and the pilots can move with the company and address the issues the company wants addressed or the pilots will be stuck in yesteryear while the company figures out how to achieve its strategic objectives without the pilots.
It's really quite simple and as much as you believe that labor can hold DL and any other company hostage to its wishlist, DL has enough options and they will exercise them.

The repeated message which pilots who said they would vote no was that they could live with the current CBA; they should not be the least bit surprised if the company says the same thing and creates one new strategy after another that the current CBA doesn't address and which the company is perfectly free to do within the current CBA.

Both sides need to agree. A strategy of holding onto what exists today at the expense of thinking they will keep the other side from moving forward NEVER WORKS.

 

[Kev3188]

A couple of points of order:

First, this contract isn't even amnedable until the end of this year.

Next, it's not like the PWA was crafted in BK. "Yesteryear" is apparently a pretty good place to be right now for the pilots...

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, Kev, the CBA can stay in force for years... that is what the RLA provides.

And DL can make it clear to the pilots that hanging onto yesteryear can be very costly if they won't work with the ocmpany to allow the company to move forward.

That is the way the collective bargaining process works. Either the union has provided a framewor that prevents DL from acting or DL acts and the union has to figure out how to extricate itself from it later.

There are alot of pilots who believe the union set a precedent of very low settlement with the company for JV violations that could impact them for years to come... and that is even on clauses that don't even exist. There are major parts of DL's network that aren't covered by any protections for the pilots and the pilots could be harmed by failing to work with the company.

that is the reality today and it has absolutely played out not only at DL but at other airlines in the past.

 

[700UW]

there were multiple issues involved that the pilots thought would cause them to lose.

I have read as many arguments from one side arguing that the math used by one group to argue that they would lose is as wrong and vice versa.

DL simply thru too many moving parts into a contract that the pilots didn't see as having big enough numbers but since there were enough pilots that argued they would never sell some things at any price, I'm not sure any larger value would help.

DL will likely repackage some of their ask while also pushing ahead with other major business issues including Gol and Skymark which will force DALPA to realize that the stated intention of just sticking wiht Contract 2012 instead of moving forward is a very dangerous place for them to take the union.

Being distracted with a change in union is potentially even more dangerous.

DL wants to move forward, the pilots want to as well and both sides need to meet each other. Collective bargaining is not a process of everyone or even side getting everything it wants.

 
 

There are no threats.

you can harp on all of the talking points from the pilot forums that you want but there are two sides and there are an equal number of pilots who saw both sides to each issue; the problem for DL was that they had too many issues which affected a subset of the pilots in one way or the other and the combined number of issues affected the majority of pilots, none of whom were convinced that they weren't losing in the process.

you can view the process as one of threats but it is quite simply a process where the company will move forward with its strategic objectives and the pilots can move with the company and address the issues the company wants addressed or the pilots will be stuck in yesteryear while the company figures out how to achieve its strategic objectives without the pilots.
It's really quite simple and as much as you believe that labor can hold DL and any other company hostage to its wishlist, DL has enough options and they will exercise them.

The repeated message which pilots who said they would vote no was that they could live with the current CBA; they should not be the least bit surprised if the company says the same thing and creates one new strategy after another that the current CBA doesn't address and which the company is perfectly free to do within the current CBA.

Both sides need to agree. A strategy of holding onto what exists today at the expense of thinking they will keep the other side from moving forward NEVER WORKS.

sure no threats coming from someone who isnt a DL Employee and hasnt been for years, coming from someone who isnt and never was a pilot nor worked under a CBA.
 
And almost a 2 to 1 margin voted NO, so your post is wrong.
 
6700 pilots voted no to 3500 yes, and the best part is they have the right to negotiate and vote on their pay, benefits, etc....

 

[Kev3188]

...and the best part is they have the right to negotiate and vote on their pay, benefits, etc....

Amen.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Beyond the points I raised, I am even more confident that DL pilots can negotiate on their own without the help of the IAM

 

[WorldTraveler]

sure no threats coming from someone who isnt a DL Employee and hasnt been for years, coming from someone who isnt and never was a pilot nor worked under a CBA.
 
And almost a 2 to 1 margin voted NO, so your post is wrong.
 
6700 pilots voted no to 3500 yes, and the best part is they have the right to negotiate and vote on their pay, benefits, etc.... 

No one has argued that the TA was not shot down badly and that alot of pilots saw a lot of things worse off for them.

I have simply said that DL and ALPA have to figure out how to see eye to eye or DL will move forward with its strategic objectives including what is permitted under the current CBA even if it impacts the pilots.

You and others fail to realize that the company pays the bills and has a whole lot more stakeholders than the pilots to worry about. if the pilots or any other entity chooses to act to protect their interests at the expense of others, the company will find a way to achieve its objectives apart from that group.

it is no less true of the equity holders that were wiped out in BK - while labor was NOT wiped out even if they took cuts - or the rest of DL's other employees.

I told you the day the TA was shot down that DL would not sit on the sidelines waiting for ALPA to continue to benefit while the company is paralyzed.

The Gol and Skymark deals both could easily blow up in DALPA's face.

DALPA would do well to get past the mindset of thinking that they can sit on their duffs and benefit from the status quo while DL continues to keep them fat and happy.

 

[Kev3188]

Beyond the points I raised, I am even more confident that DL pilots can negotiate on their own without the help of the IAM

 
Not for nothing, ALPA has asked the IAM (and other unions) for support before- and we gladly gave it. 
 
That said, I've been impressed with how much support the pilots have from other groups on the DL property-specifically IFS. It would be nice for that to be reciprocal...

 

[WorldTraveler]

at the end of the day, each group will look at for their own interests. That has been shown over and over again.

Not just at DL but at other airlines.

ALPA national wants to support the notion of having more unions on the property but the IAM can't do anything for DL pilots and in reality the pilots don't want any competition for mgmt attention.

DL can deal with all of the non-pilot employees at once. The pilots are right now a distraction to mgmt and other airlines do not deal with multiple unions simulataneously at the same speed. Adding other parties slows down how much attention the pilots get from mgmt and the pilots do not want to share the spotlight with anyone.